* some mail annoyances @ 1999-06-22 0:36 Per Bothner 1999-06-22 2:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat ` (8 more replies) 0 siblings, 9 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Bothner @ 1999-06-22 0:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: per I switched to pgnus not too long ago, and it works fairly well for me. However, there are some user interface issues that ae rather annoying. (I'm currently using gnus 0.84.) * If in the Summary group, I do M-g in my mail group to check for new mail, after new mail is read, point does to the *following* group. That's silly default; point should stay at the group I just got more mail for. * As far as I can tell, there is no command to get new mail/news from the summary buffer. This means I have to quit the Summary buffer, type M-g, then back up, and *then* type space. As well as being inconvenient, it inefficient for Gnus to re-load the existing messages. * If I enter a group, point normally goes to the first unread message. But if (say) there is only a single new message, that message becomes the last line in the window, while point goes to the *middle* of the window. When the list of ticked messages is long, it starts showing the first old message, rather than the first new message. * In general, the Gnus defaults for mail are quite clumsy. For example, there should be a single command to delete (make expirable) messages and move to the next. I ended up doing: (add-hook 'gnus-summary-mode-hook 'my-alter-summary-map) (defun my-alter-summary-map () (local-set-key "d" 'gnus-summary-put-mark-as-expirable-next)) More generally, for mail the natural classification is old messages, new messages, and deleted messages. Once I have deleted a message, I normally don't want to see it. However, I would like to be able to see old messages. If I do plain space in the Group buffer, I only see new and ticked messages. But if I do ^U-space I get *all* the messages, including the expired ones. This means that to get what I consider normal behavior (as in most other MUAs) I must take one of two acrtions for each new message: Either tick it if I want to save it, or delete it (make expireable) otherwise. Sometimes I forget. This is not very friendly. * Bottom line: Gnus is not usable as a mail reader for non-hacker types. There are just too many options, there is no introductory manual, and the defaults are non-intuitive. Even setting it up so it suitable for non-hackers is difficult. I ended up setting up my boyfriend to use VM. He is not 100% happy with VM, but I don't see how gnus could be an option. That is a shame. * In there any commend to re-number the messages in a mail folder? I'm used to mhe, which would re-use numbers on expired messages, and when teh numbers approaches 10000, I would run an mh command to renumber the entire folder. Yes, this is an esthetic issue, not really important ... -- --Per Bothner bothner@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/bothner/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner @ 1999-06-22 2:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-22 8:20 ` Kai.Grossjohann ` (7 subsequent siblings) 8 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-22 2:04 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> on Mon, 21 Jun 1999 | * As far as I can tell, there is no command to get new mail/news | from the summary buffer. M-g | * If I enter a group, point normally goes to the first unread message. | But if (say) there is only a single new message, that message becomes | the last line in the window, while point goes to the *middle* of the | window. When the list of ticked messages is long, it starts showing | the first old message, rather than the first new message. Ummm... I don't understand what you are describing. At least I have never seen the behaviour you describe. | * In general, the Gnus defaults for mail are quite clumsy. | For example, there should be a single command to delete (make | expirable) messages and move to the next. I ended up doing: Read messages are automatically marked as read. Unread messages I can mark deletable with 'd', which moves point to the next message. total-expire takes care of the rest for me. [...] | * In there any commend to re-number the messages in a mail folder? This is a Bad Idea for something that works from a news reader's perspective which remembers read messages by number. If you give a new message a number that has already been used, it will appear to have been read, and well, that is just plain wrong. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3bu8pgl+vIlSVSNkRAuQdAJ94lqMCXVmdl08qCAQsPv1cwOgavgCeIGQz 13z8ztdTWRWpf9f4rc9nFbM= =+jwr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner 1999-06-22 2:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-22 8:20 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-22 8:23 ` Kai.Grossjohann ` (6 subsequent siblings) 8 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-22 8:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > * In general, the Gnus defaults for mail are quite clumsy. > For example, there should be a single command to delete (make > expirable) messages and move to the next. I ended up doing: Some time ago, I tried to start a discussion to make the marking commands more orthogonal, but I think nothing much became of it. I suggested that it should be possible to combine the application of any mark with any movement (no movement, backwards, forwards). Currently, for example, marking as expirable always moves forward. Why is there no command that marks as expirable but doesn't move? Even more, there should be a way to specify the kind of movement: move to next/previous message, or move to next/previous _unread_ message. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner 1999-06-22 2:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-22 8:20 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-22 8:23 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-22 12:00 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-23 14:25 ` Wes Hardaker 1999-06-22 12:53 ` Per Abrahamsen ` (5 subsequent siblings) 8 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-22 8:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > * Bottom line: Gnus is not usable as a mail reader for non-hacker > types. There are just too many options, there is no introductory > manual, and the defaults are non-intuitive. Even setting it up > so it suitable for non-hackers is difficult. I ended up setting > up my boyfriend to use VM. He is not 100% happy with VM, but > I don't see how gnus could be an option. That is a shame. Hm. In the past, I have set up Gnus for a couple of people as follows: when a mail is selected, it is automatically ticked, and total-expire is turned on. This makes Gnus behave more or less like a normal mail reader: already-read messages can be distinguished from new ones, and they are always shown, and deleted messages are normally not shown. What do you think about this? > * In there any commend to re-number the messages in a mail folder? > I'm used to mhe, which would re-use numbers on expired messages, > and when teh numbers approaches 10000, I would run an mh command > to renumber the entire folder. Yes, this is an esthetic issue, > not really important ... You can make them have consecutive numbers by moving all messages from a group to the same group. Rat has already explained why re-using low numbers is not a good idea at all. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 8:23 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-22 12:00 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-22 22:34 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-23 7:39 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 14:25 ` Wes Hardaker 1 sibling, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-22 12:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > > > * Bottom line: Gnus is not usable as a mail reader for non-hacker > > types. There are just too many options, there is no introductory > > manual, and the defaults are non-intuitive. Even setting it up > > so it suitable for non-hackers is difficult. I ended up setting > > up my boyfriend to use VM. He is not 100% happy with VM, but > > I don't see how gnus could be an option. That is a shame. > > Hm. In the past, I have set up Gnus for a couple of people as > follows: when a mail is selected, it is automatically ticked, and > total-expire is turned on. Kai, Is the auto ticking done by some existing functionality in gnus? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 12:00 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-22 22:34 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-23 7:39 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-22 22:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > Kai, Is the auto ticking done by some existing functionality in gnus? (add-to-hook 'gnus-article-display-hook 'gnus-summary-tick-article-forward), presumably. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 12:00 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-22 22:34 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-23 7:39 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 7:39 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > > > Hm. In the past, I have set up Gnus for a couple of people as > > follows: when a mail is selected, it is automatically ticked, and > > total-expire is turned on. > > Kai, Is the auto ticking done by some existing functionality in gnus? Well... There is a variable gnus-mark-article-hook which is normally set to (gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read). I defined my own function for this: (defun kai-gnus-mark-article-hook () (if (and (not (or (memq gnus-current-article gnus-newsgroup-marked) (memq gnus-current-article gnus-newsgroup-dormant) (memq gnus-current-article gnus-newsgroup-expirable) (memq gnus-current-article gnus-newsgroup-ancient) (memq gnus-current-article gnus-newsgroup-reads)))) (if (kai-gnus-newsgroup-style-group gnus-newsgroup-name) (gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read) (gnus-summary-mark-as-dormant 1)))) I enabled this function with: (setq gnus-mark-article-hook (list 'kai-gnus-mark-article-hook)) Now, what does kai-gnus-mark-article-hook do? Well, it does not do anything if the article is alread ticked or dormant or expirable or ancient or read. But if the article is fresh, it sees whether the current group is a `newsgroup style group'. If so, the article is marked as read (as is normal in a newsgroup). Else, the article is marked as dormant. (Of course, you can replace gnus-summary-mark-as-dormant with gnus-summary-mark-as-unread-forward to tick the message.) What's missing? Well, the function kai-gnus-newsgroup-style-group which checks whether a group is a newsgroup style group. Here's a simple version: (defun kai-gnus-newsgroup-style-group (groupname) (if (string-match "^nnml:" groupname) nil t)) It considers all nnml groups to be mail style, all others to be newsgroup style. Suppose you wish to treat mailing lists like newsgroups, and further suppose your mailing list groups are called "nnml:list.foo", then you could use the following definition: (defun kai-gnus-newsgroup-style-group (groupname) (cond ((string-match "^nnml:list" groupname) t) ((string-match "^nnml:" groupname) nil) (t t))) kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 8:23 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-22 12:00 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-23 14:25 ` Wes Hardaker 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Wes Hardaker @ 1999-06-23 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding >>>>> On 22 Jun 1999 10:23:13 +0200, Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE said: Kai> Hm. In the past, I have set up Gnus for a couple of people as Kai> follows: when a mail is selected, it is automatically ticked, and Kai> total-expire is turned on. This makes Gnus behave more or less Kai> like a normal mail reader: already-read messages can be Kai> distinguished from new ones, and they are always shown, and Kai> deleted messages are normally not shown. Kai> What do you think about this? Colors are wrong... Red (default ticked) is not an appropriate color for old messages... -- "Ninjas aren't dangerous. They're more afraid of you than you are of them." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-22 8:23 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-22 12:53 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-22 17:48 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Per Bothner ` (3 more replies) 1999-06-22 12:58 ` some mail annoyances David S. Goldberg ` (4 subsequent siblings) 8 siblings, 4 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-22 12:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > * If in the Summary group, I do M-g in my mail group to check for new > mail, after new mail is read, point does to the *following* group. > That's silly default; point should stay at the group I just got > more mail for. Not if you want to fetch new messages for several groups, I do that often for foreign nntp groups. > * As far as I can tell, there is no command to get new mail/news > from the summary buffer. This means I have to quit the Summary > buffer, type M-g, then back up, and *then* type space. As > well as being inconvenient, it inefficient for Gnus to re-load > the existing messages. M-g works in the summary buffer. > * If I enter a group, point normally goes to the first unread message. > But if (say) there is only a single new message, that message becomes > the last line in the window, while point goes to the *middle* of the > window. When the list of ticked messages is long, it starts showing > the first old message, rather than the first new message. I haven't noticed that. > * In general, the Gnus defaults for mail are quite clumsy. > For example, there should be a single command to delete (make > expirable) messages and move to the next. I ended up doing: > > (add-hook 'gnus-summary-mode-hook 'my-alter-summary-map) > (defun my-alter-summary-map () > (local-set-key "d" 'gnus-summary-put-mark-as-expirable-next)) Use `E' for that. > More generally, for mail the natural classification is old messages, > new messages, and deleted messages. Once I have deleted a > message, I normally don't want to see it. However, I would like > to be able to see old messages. If I do plain space in the Group > buffer, I only see new and ticked messages. But if I do ^U-space > I get *all* the messages, including the expired ones. This means > that to get what I consider normal behavior (as in most other MUAs) > I must take one of two acrtions for each new message: Either tick it > if I want to save it, or delete it (make expireable) otherwise. > Sometimes I forget. This is not very friendly. You can set `Expiry Wait' to `immidiate' and `Display' to `all' in the group properties (G c). However, more important: Gnus is not mail reader. It is a news reader, which happens to handle mail as well. As long as you keep thinking in the news paradigm, Gnus is very friendly. > * Bottom line: Gnus is not usable as a mail reader for non-hacker > types. There are just too many options, there is no introductory > manual, and the defaults are non-intuitive. Even setting it up > so it suitable for non-hackers is difficult. I ended up setting > up my boyfriend to use VM. He is not 100% happy with VM, but > I don't see how gnus could be an option. That is a shame. VM is an excellent mail reader, and in itself a good reason why Gnus should keep working like a news reader. If you want a mail reader that works according to normal mail reader conventions, VM is there. However, if you really want to treat your mailbox as a newsspool, Gnus is the answer. > * In there any commend to re-number the messages in a mail folder? > I'm used to mhe, which would re-use numbers on expired messages, > and when teh numbers approaches 10000, I would run an mh command > to renumber the entire folder. Yes, this is an esthetic issue, > not really important ... You can't renumber the usenet messages, why should you be able to renumber mail messages? Makes no sense from the Gnus point of view. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-22 12:53 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-22 17:48 ` Per Bothner 1999-06-22 18:20 ` Karl Kleinpaste ` (2 more replies) 1999-06-22 18:33 ` some mail annoyances [deleting mail] Per Bothner ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 3 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Bothner @ 1999-06-22 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > You can't renumber the usenet messages, why should you be able to > renumber mail messages? Makes no sense from the Gnus point of view. But it makes sense from *my* point of view. Saying you can't renumber news does not imply that should should not be able to renumber mail. News and mail *are* different. It is useful for them to share user interfaces to a large extent, but that should not be an excuse to provide the minimal shared functionality. Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > This is a Bad Idea for something that works from a news reader's > perspective which remembers read messages by number. If you give a new > message a number that has already been used, it will appear to have been > read, and well, that is just plain wrong. Huh? If there was a command to renumber a mail group, it would also renumber the remembered read messages. That is part of a correct implementation. It may be tedious, but it is obviously doable. I suppose message number may also be appear in messages sent to others, thus threading may get confused if messages are renumbed and then a new mesages arrives which references a message using the old number. But in no case should unread mail "appear to have been read", assuming a correctly-implemented re-number command. I do not see that there can be any fundamental difficulty writing such a command. A pain, that I can see, if there are a lot of files that have to be modified. Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > You can make them have consecutive numbers by moving all messages from > a group to the same group. You can (reliably) move messages *within* a group? I guess I should read up on that. > Rat has already explained why re-using low numbers is not a good > idea at all. Not to my satisfaction. Perhaps this would make a good FAQ entry when we are done? -- --Per Bothner bothner@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/bothner/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-22 17:48 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Per Bothner @ 1999-06-22 18:20 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-23 7:00 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-22 18:58 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 6:45 ` Kai.Grossjohann 2 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-22 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: >> You can't renumber the usenet messages, why should you be able to >> renumber mail messages? Makes no sense from the Gnus point of view. Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > But it makes sense from *my* point of view. Saying you can't > renumber news does not imply that should should not be able to > renumber mail. News and mail *are* different. (This is something of a rant of mine from years past, but I feel a need to dust it off one more time.) The difference between mail and news is the size of the receiving audience. Privately-addressed, SMTP-transported articles are mail. But ding@gnus.org arrives as mail (SMTP) while being news nonetheless. A fair number of apparent ding subscribers see it as emacs.ding via some server in .dk, as a matter of fact. Local to myself, there's a newsgroup (being, in precise terms, a forum present on a local machine which serves up text via NNTP) which has precisely two readers, myself and one other. It's effectively mail, considering that no one but the two of us sees this stuff -- it *could* be sent between us via SMTP with no loss, or even change, of semantic value. The bottom line is that you, and many other people, distinguish content type from transport class. And that's neither necessary nor appropriate nor exactly the point any more. Are messages shared in a Micro$quish Exchange server environment news or mail? I dunno -- I can't tell the difference any more, and I like it that way. You tell me that news and mail are different. And I wonder exactly how, considering that I can truly get at either transport class with an identical user interface. *I don't care about transport class*. Transport doesn't matter; presentation does. Gnus gives me a great presentation while satisfyingly hiding transport from view. Certainly, I can go hunting down to the transport level for those types of bits, if I really need. I seldom do, and see no reason for such low-level issues to govern the high-level items that concern me. E.g. the concept of a "followup" has a uniform conceptual organization, which is defined appropriately in the different transport classes. > It is useful for them to share user interfaces to a large extent, > but that should not be an excuse to provide the minimal shared > functionality. I'm at the edge of being vaguely offended by the idea that Gnus represents any concept of "minimal functionality." It is no stretch of the truth to say that Gnus represents a proper superset of nearly every other news/mail interface's capabilities. You have managed to identify a couple of things that Gnus doesn't yet do. Whether those are things which we ought to make it do is an interesting question; perhaps they've been left out because they are peculiar to a transport-centric environment, or have some other attribute which just plain doesn't fit with the model Gnus provides. Gnus' model is much more one of "message management" than "news reading". There are a number of transport-specific capabilities that do in fact have to be available, such as moving around messages over which one has complete control (those which arrived via SMTP). But these are the wild exception to the general model presented. > If there was a command to renumber a mail group, it would also > renumber the remembered read messages. That is part of a correct > implementation. It may be tedious, but it is obviously doable. Certainly. What do you wish to accomplish by re-numbering? That is, certainly you're correct, some amount of hackery could be undertaken so as to coerce Gnus into re-ordering SMTP-transport messages. What is the goal of having done so? If you're just looking to group a set of messages close to one another numerically, then Gnus already provides that: Mark the set of articles in which you're interested with `#', and move them (`B m') to the same group in which they currently sit. New articles comprised of those original articles will come into existence, and the old ones will disappear. Voilà, you now have numerically-clumped articles, which may be of some benefit to you. (I don't know what, offhand; for myself, I use `B m' almost exclusively for archival purposes.) I will observe that, from your original discussion of wanting to move messages, I got the distinct impression that you simply had a long- standing workaround for a known MH limitation, in that MH doesn't cope with message numbers above 10,000 *at all*. If that's the goal being accomplished -- keeping the user interface operating sanely in the face of an erroneous and arbitrary internal representation -- then you don't need the function in the first place, because Gnus does not have that bug. > You can (reliably) move messages *within* a group? I guess I should > read up on that. `C-h i' -> Gnus -> The Summary Buffer -> Mail Group Commands There you will find `B m' and all its relatives. >> Rat has already explained why re-using low numbers is not a good >> idea at all. > Not to my satisfaction. There is necessarily a trade-off between programming difficulty and usefulness to the users. What you're asking for strikes (many of) us as being of extremely limited value, while surely being a major pain in the ass to implement. Whether you perceive the trade-off similarly is the definition of whether the explanation is "to your satisfaction" or not. --karl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-22 18:20 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-23 7:00 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-23 7:44 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-06-23 7:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On 22 Jun 1999 14:20:50 -0400 Karl Kleinpaste <karl@justresearch.com> writes: > (This is something of a rant of mine from years past, but I feel a > need to dust it off one more time.) > > The difference between mail and news is the size of the receiving > audience. > > [snip] > > The bottom line is that you, and many other people, distinguish > content type from transport class. And that's neither necessary nor > appropriate nor exactly the point any more. Are messages shared in a > Micro$quish Exchange server environment news or mail? I dunno -- I > can't tell the difference any more, and I like it that way. Actually there is another quite fundamental difference between mail and news (which makes using gnus - by origin a news reader- harder to configure to read mail ): news is stored somewhere else: it's volatile; if you want to keep it you have to do something mail is stored locally by you: it's permanent; if you want to delete it you have to do something This is how most newsreaders and mail programs work; this is also what people expect them to do. Therefore transport class (or at least `storage class') does matter. Jaap-Henk -- Jaap-Henk Hoepman | Come sail your ships around me Dept. of Computer Science | And burn these bridges down University of Twente | Nick Cave - "Ship Song" Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman Phone: +31 53 4893795 === Secr: +31 53 4893770 === Fax: +31 53 4894590 PGP ID: 0xF52E26DD Fingerprint: 1AED DDEB C7F1 DBB3 0556 4732 4217 ABEF ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-23 7:00 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-06-23 7:44 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 7:50 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 8:18 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 7:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes: > Actually there is another quite fundamental difference between > mail and news (which makes using gnus - by origin a news reader- > harder to configure to read mail ): > news is stored somewhere else: it's volatile; if you want > to keep it you have to do something > mail is stored locally by you: it's permanent; if you want > to delete it you have to do something > This is how most newsreaders and mail programs work; this is also > what people expect them to do. Therefore transport class (or at > least `storage class') does matter. This fundamental difference is quite blurred with Gnus. You can even set it up such that the "in news, you have to do something to keep it, in mail, you have to do something to delete it" is reversed! And with IMAP, mail isn't stored locally. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-23 7:44 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 7:50 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 8:18 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-23 7:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > And with IMAP, mail isn't stored locally. No, but it is still controlled by the user. I think the local/remote distinction Jaap-Henk Hoepman gave is more exactly described as a user-controled/administrator-controled distinction. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-23 7:44 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 7:50 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-23 8:18 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-06-23 8:18 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding On 23 Jun 1999 09:44:56 +0200 Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes: > > > Actually there is another quite fundamental difference between > > mail and news (which makes using gnus - by origin a news reader- > > harder to configure to read mail ): > > news is stored somewhere else: it's volatile; if you want > > to keep it you have to do something > > mail is stored locally by you: it's permanent; if you want > > to delete it you have to do something > > This is how most newsreaders and mail programs work; this is also > > what people expect them to do. Therefore transport class (or at > > least `storage class') does matter. > > This fundamental difference is quite blurred with Gnus. You can even > set it up such that the "in news, you have to do something to keep it, > in mail, you have to do something to delete it" is reversed! Right. And that's exactly why gnus is hard to set up to handle mail with. By default, it does `the right thing' for news, but not for mail. Just a thought: how difficult would it be to introduce group parameters this-is-a-mail-group and this-is-a-news-group, and to let gnus do it `the news way' for newsgroups and do it `the mail way' for mail groups. This way, installing gnus to read both news and mail becomes easy; and once people get the hang of it maybe they will expirment to do it `the gnus way'. > And with IMAP, mail isn't stored locally. Well, maybe Per's suggestion to distinguish user-controlled vs. admin-controlled information better captures the situation. > kai > -- > Life is hard and then you die. -- Jaap-Henk Hoepman | Come sail your ships around me Dept. of Computer Science | And burn these bridges down University of Twente | Nick Cave - "Ship Song" Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman Phone: +31 53 4893795 === Secr: +31 53 4893770 === Fax: +31 53 4894590 PGP ID: 0xF52E26DD Fingerprint: 1AED DDEB C7F1 DBB3 0556 4732 4217 ABEF ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-22 17:48 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Per Bothner 1999-06-22 18:20 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-22 18:58 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-22 19:29 ` Sam Falkner 1999-06-23 6:45 ` Kai.Grossjohann 2 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-22 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > > You can't renumber the usenet messages, why should you be able to > > renumber mail messages? Makes no sense from the Gnus point of view. > > But it makes sense from *my* point of view. Then your point of view is wrong for Gnus. The point of my message was that if can't think of your mail as news which has arrived on a slightly different route, then Gnus isn't the right tool for you. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-22 18:58 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-22 19:29 ` Sam Falkner 1999-06-22 19:33 ` Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) Laura Conrad ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Sam Falkner @ 1999-06-22 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Per Bothner, ding Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > Then your point of view is wrong for Gnus. The point of my message > was that if can't think of your mail as news which has arrived on a > slightly different route, then Gnus isn't the right tool for you. When I first switched to Gnus, I too worried quite a bit about message numbers and compacting them. I guess it came from my mh background, where such things were easy to do. Also, I would never have dreamed of turning on total-expire. Yikes! Now I couldn't care less about the filenames of the mail messages that I'm reading (using nnml). I'm also much happier with total-expire turned on. I understand why the manual says `use with caution', but in reality, I think most people would be happier with it, if they took the time to understand it. My only current gripe is with the cached article numbers, especially when moving to a new NNTP server. In that case, I *do* move the article numbers around to occupy the lowest numbers, and rebuild the cache. I wish this were automatic. - Sam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) 1999-06-22 19:29 ` Sam Falkner @ 1999-06-22 19:33 ` Laura Conrad 1999-06-22 19:48 ` Jack Twilley ` (3 more replies) 1999-06-22 21:13 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Tony Lam ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 4 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Laura Conrad @ 1999-06-22 19:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Sam Falkner <samf@central.sun.com> writes: > Now I couldn't care less about the filenames of the mail messages that > I'm reading (using nnml). I don't care what the names are, but there are times I wish it were easier to connect the filename with the message in gnus. I do a fair amount of using grep to find the message which has a given piece of information in it, and then I look at the headers and then I go to the group and find that subject and author. I'm sure there's a more straightforward way to do this. What do other people do? -- Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ ) (617) 661-8097 , fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) 1999-06-22 19:33 ` Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) Laura Conrad @ 1999-06-22 19:48 ` Jack Twilley 1999-06-22 19:48 ` Per Abrahamsen ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Jack Twilley @ 1999-06-22 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Laura" == Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes: Laura> I don't care what the names are, but there are times I wish Laura> it were easier to connect the filename with the message in Laura> gnus. I do a fair amount of using grep to find the message Laura> which has a given piece of information in it, and then I Laura> look at the headers and then I go to the group and find Laura> that subject and author. I'm sure there's a more Laura> straightforward way to do this. What do other people do? I forget who put it up, but there's a file called nnir.el that does this wonderfully. You have to install something like glimpse to index the mail, but once that's done, you just type G G, and it does its thing. Here's the nnir-ish parts of my .gnus: (setq nnir-search-engine 'glimpse) (require 'nnir) Obviously you have to put nnir.el in your load-path, etc etc. Good luck! Laura> -- Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , Laura> http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ ) (617) 661-8097 , fax: Laura> (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA Jack. (used to be jmt@world.std.com -- still am, I think.) -- Jack Twilley jmt at nycap dot rr dot com http colon slash slash jmt dot dhs dot org slash tilde jmt slash ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) 1999-06-22 19:33 ` Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) Laura Conrad 1999-06-22 19:48 ` Jack Twilley @ 1999-06-22 19:48 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 6:54 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 20:39 ` Justin Sheehy 3 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-22 19:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes: > What do other people do? I press `j' and enter the file name/number of the message. [ Well, actually I just use less. ] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) 1999-06-22 19:33 ` Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) Laura Conrad 1999-06-22 19:48 ` Jack Twilley 1999-06-22 19:48 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-23 6:54 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 15:36 ` Laura Conrad 1999-06-24 20:39 ` Justin Sheehy 3 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 6:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes: > I don't care what the names are, but there are times I wish it were > easier to connect the filename with the message in gnus. Gnus shows the article number in the mode line of the summary buffer (or was it the article buffer?). For nnml and nnmh, the article number is equal to the file name. > I do a fair amount of using grep to find the message which has a > given piece of information in it, and then I look at the headers > and then I go to the group and find that subject and author. There is a command for jumping to an article. It allows you to enter the article number. > I'm sure there's a more straightforward way to do this. What do > other people do? Others have pointed out nnir.el. It is available from ftp://ls6-ftp.cs.uni-dortmund.de/pub/src/emacs/nnir.el Let me know if I can help in setting it up. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) 1999-06-23 6:54 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 15:36 ` Laura Conrad 1999-06-23 17:46 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-24 9:10 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Laura Conrad @ 1999-06-23 15:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > Gnus shows the article number in the mode line of the summary buffer > (or was it the article buffer?). For nnml and nnmh, the article > number is equal to the file name. There is a number in the summary buffer, but it isn't the same as the file name. I don't know where that number comes from, or what you can do with it. -- Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ ) (617) 661-8097 , fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) 1999-06-23 15:36 ` Laura Conrad @ 1999-06-23 17:46 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-24 9:10 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-23 17:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > > > > Gnus shows the article number in the mode line of the summary buffer > > (or was it the article buffer?). For nnml and nnmh, the article > > number is equal to the file name. > > There is a number in the summary buffer, but it isn't the same as the > file name. I don't know where that number comes from, or what you can > do with it. The numbers in the summary buffer are the number of lines in the messages. The number in the *mode line* of the summary buffer is the article number (file name) of the last displayed article. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) 1999-06-23 15:36 ` Laura Conrad 1999-06-23 17:46 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-24 9:10 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 9:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > > > > Gnus shows the article number in the mode line of the summary buffer > > (or was it the article buffer?). For nnml and nnmh, the article > > number is equal to the file name. > > There is a number in the summary buffer, but it isn't the same as the > file name. I don't know where that number comes from, or what you can > do with it. I said mode line, not summary buffer. My mode line looks like this when looking at your message: -1:-- Gnus:nnimap.I.auto.gnus [778] {10 more} (Summary Plugged)--L9--Bot-- The article number (and file name if using nnml) is 778. The number in the summary buffer itself is the number of lines in the message. I think. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) 1999-06-22 19:33 ` Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) Laura Conrad ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-23 6:54 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 20:39 ` Justin Sheehy 3 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Justin Sheehy @ 1999-06-24 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw) Laura Conrad <lconrad@concord.com> writes: > I don't care what the names are, but there are times I wish it were > easier to connect the filename with the message in gnus. Using nnml, I assume? It's easy. > I do a fair amount of using grep to find the message which has a > given piece of information in it, and then I look at the headers and > then I go to the group and find that subject and author. I'm sure > there's a more straightforward way to do this. What do other people > do? The name of the file is the article number. So, if you find a file named '1783', you can 'j' to article number 1783 to access it in Gnus. The easiest way to reverse this process is to read the Xref header. -- Justin Sheehy In a cloud bones of steel. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-22 19:29 ` Sam Falkner 1999-06-22 19:33 ` Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) Laura Conrad @ 1999-06-22 21:13 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-23 7:05 ` Steinar Bang 1999-06-23 19:33 ` David Hedbor 3 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Tony Lam @ 1999-06-22 21:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding * "Sam" == Sam Falkner <samf@central.sun.com> writes: Sam> Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: Sam> My only current gripe is with the cached article numbers, Sam> especially when moving to a new NNTP server. In that case, I Sam> *do* move the article numbers around to occupy the lowest Sam> numbers, and rebuild the cache. I wish this were automatic. As far as I can tell, moving/copying/respooling don't seem to touch cached articles at all, so they won't renumber cached articles. Do I miss something? I don't know any working solution to this problem. Tony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-22 19:29 ` Sam Falkner 1999-06-22 19:33 ` Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) Laura Conrad 1999-06-22 21:13 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Tony Lam @ 1999-06-23 7:05 ` Steinar Bang 1999-06-23 19:33 ` David Hedbor 3 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Steinar Bang @ 1999-06-23 7:05 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> Sam Falkner <samf@central.sun.com>: > When I first switched to Gnus, I too worried quite a bit about > message numbers and compacting them. I guess it came from my mh > background, where such things were easy to do. Also, I would never > have dreamed of turning on total-expire. Yikes! > Now I couldn't care less about the filenames of the mail messages > that I'm reading (using nnml). I'm also much happier with > total-expire turned on. This mirrors my own experience almost exactly. Same background, same scepticism, same desires, and the same conclusions. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-22 19:29 ` Sam Falkner ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-23 7:05 ` Steinar Bang @ 1999-06-23 19:33 ` David Hedbor 1999-06-25 23:25 ` Kai.Grossjohann 3 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: David Hedbor @ 1999-06-23 19:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Sam Falkner <samf@central.sun.com> writes: > > When I first switched to Gnus, I too worried quite a bit about message > numbers and compacting them. I guess it came from my mh background, > where such things were easy to do. Also, I would never have dreamed > of turning on total-expire. Yikes! I could also care elss about the article file names (numbers), but I really hate how gnus calculates the number of articles in an nnml group. If I have 100 messages in a group, I want gnus to say I have 100 messages, not 1029 messages. This has of course been discussed many times before but I have yet to understand why gnus can't check how many messages there REALLY are in a mail group. How hard can that really be? -- [ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ] A gleekzorp without a tornpee is like a quop without a fertsneet (sort of). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-23 19:33 ` David Hedbor @ 1999-06-25 23:25 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-26 0:27 ` David Hedbor 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-25 23:25 UTC (permalink / raw) David Hedbor <david@hedbor.org> writes: > [...] This has of course been discussed many times before but I > have yet to understand why gnus can't check how many messages > there REALLY are in a mail group. How hard can that really be? > [...] It is not hard, but slow. Use nnmh as your mail backend and you will see just *how* slow. (With nnmh, Gnus looks for the exact number of messages in a group because nnmh does not have these nifty .overview files. I think.) kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-25 23:25 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-26 0:27 ` David Hedbor 1999-06-28 15:45 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: David Hedbor @ 1999-06-26 0:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > David Hedbor <david@hedbor.org> writes: > > > [...] This has of course been discussed many times before but I > > have yet to understand why gnus can't check how many messages > > there REALLY are in a mail group. How hard can that really be? > > [...] > > It is not hard, but slow. Use nnmh as your mail backend and you will > see just *how* slow. (With nnmh, Gnus looks for the exact number of > messages in a group because nnmh does not have these nifty .overview > files. I think.) Why not simply check the number of entries in the overview files? Or add a second file that keeps the number of articles cached. I can't possibly see how this can be slow for nnml. If you don't want to count lines, isn't there a getdir function? I mean, in Pike I could do [ sizeof(get_dir(".")) ]. That takes 10-20 ms on a dir with 3000 files in it. wc -l on the .overview file in that directory takes 0.006 seconds. Another option would be to add a first line with num articles to the .overview files. In any case, I still can't see how it would be either hard or slow, unless emacs is very bad at the above operations (I don't know enough elisp to try). It would of course be an nnml specific solution (well, should work with nnmh too possibly). -- [ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ] I didn't believe in reincarnation in any of my other lives. I don't see why I should have to believe in it in this one. -- Strange de Jim ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-26 0:27 ` David Hedbor @ 1999-06-28 15:45 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-28 15:45 UTC (permalink / raw) David Hedbor <david@hedbor.org> writes: > Why not simply check the number of entries in the overview files? When evaluating overall state to make a *Group* display, or to offer #-of-articles-on-entry query when beyond the gnus-large-newsgroup limit, Gnus has not yet seen overviews. Overviews are seen only as a group is being entered, when the *Summary* display is being created. > In any case, I still can't see how it would be either hard or slow, It is not slow. It is hard. You are asking that Gnus begin to examine _individual group content_ at a time when it is supposed to be evaluating only _overall groups' content_. It is possible that Gnus could be convinced to do this for non-NNTP groups, at least for nnml groups in particular -- peek into the dir during *Group* display creation, count real articles, update the count seen. But it is surely a bizarre thing, given the context in which the *Group* display creation is being conducted. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering] 1999-06-22 17:48 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Per Bothner 1999-06-22 18:20 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-22 18:58 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-23 6:45 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 18:34 ` Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated Tony Lam 2 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 6:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > > You can make them have consecutive numbers by moving all messages from > > a group to the same group. > > You can (reliably) move messages *within* a group? I guess I should > read up on that. Yes, you can. And you can rename a group twice: from foo to foo1, from foo1 back to foo. After this, you'll have article numbers starting from 1. I still don't see why you would want this, but the possibility is there. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-23 6:45 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 18:34 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-23 19:56 ` Stainless Steel Rat ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Tony Lam @ 1999-06-23 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, As long as people are talking about message number related problem and solution, I'll throw in my problem :-) I switched to Gnus from mailers that do not use message numbers, naturally with Gnus I couldn't care less about message numbers. The only place that I have to deal with message numbers is when I enter a large group that I have to decide how many messages to read. (I don't want to set gnus-large-newsgroup to nil because there are just too many to read). In the following situations that I'm very frustrated by the message numbers: * Number gap in cached messages can not be removed. When a messages group (I use nnfolder) has cached articles, I find respooling/moving/copying messages in the group do not touch cached articles, also cache groups do not support moving/copy themselves, thus there is no way to get rid of those huge gaps in message numbers within Gnus. Some people has reported moving articles does get rid of the number gaps in cached messages but I can't get it working for me. Is this intended behavior or a bug? I almost have to write a script to renumber cached messages outside Gnus and have Gnus rebuild the cache, but Gnus ought to handle this nicely. * Number in virtual group is frustrating. I have procmail to prioritize one of my high volume mailing lists into three folders, say foo.a, foo.b, foo.c. The reason is being that I only want to be notified of new messages in foo.a, so I can have xbuffy to only watch the spool file for foo.a. Sometimes I need to read all messages in foo.a, foo.b and foo.c, so I have a virtual group foo.v that consists of the above three. Now how does the number I give Gnus to read when entering the virtual group gets distributed within the component groups? Here is an example: group message number range ----- -------------------- foo.a [1000-1200] foo.b [1100-2500] foo.c [3000-4000] When I tell Gnus to read read 300 messages from foo.v, does Gnus read 100 from each component group or just read the 300 messages with highest number from the virtual group? How does other people handle these problem? Any suggestion will be appreciated. Tony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-23 18:34 ` Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated Tony Lam @ 1999-06-23 19:56 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-23 22:13 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 9:14 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-04 1:30 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-23 19:56 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@eng.sun.com> on Wed, 23 Jun 1999 | * Number gap in cached messages can not be removed. When a messages | group (I use nnfolder) has cached articles, I find | respooling/moving/copying messages in the group do not touch | cached articles, Why are you caching mail messages? There is no sane reason to do more than 'tick' with `u' so as to prevent articles from being expired. | also cache groups do not support moving/copy themselves, There is no "cache" backend. The only ways to read cache areas is to use nndir or nneething backends, both of which are read-only backends. If you wish to reseqence a group, process mark all messages in that group and move them to the same group (B m). | * Number in virtual group is frustrating. Virtual groups are frustrating :). [...] | When I tell Gnus to read read 300 messages from foo.v, does Gnus | read 100 from each component group or just read the 300 messages | with highest number from the virtual group? Gnus reads 100 articles. Where the backend gets them is a separate issue (which is the entire point, really). | How does other people handle these problem? Any suggestion will be | appreciated. I've never experienced these "problems", mainly becuase I never bother thinking about things like article numbers. They are irrelevant to me; they only mean something to the Gnus backend that maintains them. Ignore messages numbers and your "problems" will go away. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3cTwBgl+vIlSVSNkRAuNAAJsGlMogh3cKALkyKHNonecNQKVsFgCfS8Za CKOdr8nS6KuOZUmV6te9YXU= =kOfb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-23 19:56 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-23 22:13 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 0:20 ` Stainless Steel Rat ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Tony Lam @ 1999-06-23 22:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: (ding) * "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: * Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@eng.sun.com> on Wed, 23 Jun 1999 Tony> * Number gap in cached messages can not be removed. When a messages Tony> group (I use nnfolder) has cached articles, I find Tony> respooling/moving/copying messages in the group do not touch Tony> cached articles, Rat> Why are you caching mail messages? There is no sane reason to do Rat> more than 'tick' with `u' so as to prevent articles from being Rat> expired. I use passive cache to archive messages in the same group in mail and news because ticked messages can be expired, at least in newsgroups, and I want one consistent operation for both mail and groups. Besides, I use tick to mark messages that need to be replied later. >From Gnus's info: `!' Marked as ticked (`gnus-ticked-mark'). "Ticked articles" are articles that will remain visible always. If you see an article that you find interesting, or you want to put off reading it, or replying to it, until sometime later, you'd typically tick it. However, articles can be expired, so if you want to keep an article forever, you'll have to make it persistent (*Note Persistent Articles::). Maybe the problem can be better stated as article number reseqencing is not possible for mail groups with cached articles. Tony> also cache groups do not support moving/copy themselves, Rat> There is no "cache" backend. The only ways to read cache areas Rat> is to use nndir or nneething backends, both of which are Rat> read-only backends. Rat> If you wish to reseqence a group, process mark all messages in Rat> that group and move them to the same group (B m). You're right, there is no "nncache" backend. My cache groups are using nnspool backends (Gnus's default?) I was referring the groups that I setup to read cached only articles. My point was that those groups do not support copying/moving, so I can't copy or move them to remove number gaps. Rat> Virtual groups are frustrating :). Rat> Gnus reads 100 articles. Good to know. Still they are not the last 300 articles that are arrived most recently from the point of virtual group, as I would get from a non-virtual group (assuming no article number gap off course). Rat> I've never experienced these "problems", mainly becuase I never Rat> bother thinking about things like article numbers. They are Rat> irrelevant to me; they only mean something to the Gnus backend Rat> that maintains them. Ignore messages numbers and your "problems" Rat> will go away. I never want to care about article numbers in the first place. Gnus could have transparently hide those numbers from user completely, or at least provide some satisfactory working solution that can be automated to deal with these situations, and there would be no problems from user regarding article numbers. Regards, Tony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-23 22:13 ` Tony Lam @ 1999-06-24 0:20 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-24 6:44 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 14:58 ` Peter von der Ahé - at home 1999-06-24 8:42 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-24 9:17 ` Kai.Grossjohann 2 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-24 0:20 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@eng.sun.com> on Wed, 23 Jun 1999 | I never want to care about article numbers in the first place. Gnus | could have transparently hide those numbers from user completely, or | at least provide some satisfactory working solution that can be | automated to deal with these situations, and there would be no | problems from user regarding article numbers. Point: Gnus *DOES* hide those numbers completely (if you tell it not to display article numbers in the summary buffers). In the ~5 years I have been using Gnus, I have never looked at article numbers outside of writing code that deals with messages on an article number basis, that being my grafting of Gnus' early expiry code to GNUS and FSF Emacs 18, making early versions of Gnus play nicely with jka-compr and compressed nnml files, and some procmail support (the nnmail-keep-last-article stuff). Admittedly, you are using cache and tick in a fashion that is more complex than it needs to be (read: wrong :). I think you would be happier doing this: * Use ticks (! or u) to mark articles that you wish to reply to later. * Use mark dormant (?) to mark articles that you want to keep around forever. * Set gnus-use-cache based on group name (I use a cond form in gnus-select-group-hook to set certain variables based on group name). Set it true for remote groups, nil or passive as you would for local (mail) groups. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3cXm6gl+vIlSVSNkRAp9BAJ9bCNiCcVKZnBUZo57Mly+wS9opHgCdFJqN aNr21OGH/FnMUvTWFv6VroQ= =Cx0K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ Earth, presumably from outer space. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 0:20 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-24 6:44 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 9:19 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 9:21 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 14:58 ` Peter von der Ahé - at home 1 sibling, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Tony Lam @ 1999-06-24 6:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: (ding) * "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: Rat> Point: Gnus *DOES* hide those numbers completely (if you tell it Rat> not to display article numbers in the summary buffers). People are forced to be concern with, deal with article numbers because they have been kept prompting to make decision (how many messages to fetch), for which they have first to be aware there is an article number associate with each article and secondly, they have to somehow keep reseqencing these numbers in order for that decision to make sense. And for the situations I mentioned, Gnus does not provide a satisfactory solution. Rat> Admittedly, you are using cache and tick in a fashion that is Rat> more complex than it needs to be (read: wrong :). I think you Rat> would be happier doing this: Rat> * Use ticks (! or u) to mark articles that you wish to reply to later. Rat> * Use mark dormant (?) to mark articles that you want to keep around Rat> forever. Rat> * Set gnus-use-cache based on group name (I use a cond form in Rat> gnus-select-group-hook to set certain variables based on group name). Rat> Set it true for remote groups, nil or passive as you would for local Rat> (mail) groups. I'm one of those people who prefer 5 marks for messages: unmarked - new message O - old, read message (with total-expire) ! - message needs attention * - message archived in place ? - interesting message that I would like to see followup Anyway, the problem remains as long as any kind of cache is used for mail groups (gnus-use-cache is anything other than nil) and I don't see how using cache is too complex. Regards, Tony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 6:44 ` Tony Lam @ 1999-06-24 9:19 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 9:21 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 9:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@eng.sun.com> writes: > * "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > > Rat> Point: Gnus *DOES* hide those numbers completely (if you tell it > Rat> not to display article numbers in the summary buffers). > > People are forced to be concern with, deal with article numbers > because they have been kept prompting to make decision (how many > messages to fetch), for which they have first to be aware there is an > article number associate with each article and secondly, they have to > somehow keep reseqencing these numbers in order for that decision to > make sense. And for the situations I mentioned, Gnus does not provide > a satisfactory solution. I don't recall having any problems with the gaps in my nnml groups. I do not use total-expire, I mark as read those messages which I want to keep and I tick those messages which I need to work on. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 6:44 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 9:19 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 9:21 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 9:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@eng.sun.com> writes: > I'm one of those people who prefer 5 marks for messages: > > unmarked - new message > O - old, read message (with total-expire) > ! - message needs attention > * - message archived in place > ? - interesting message that I would like to see followup If you turn off total-expire, you can use: unmarked -- new message E -- old msg, delete it soon ! -- msg needs attention R/O -- msg archived ? -- msg archived and interesting kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 0:20 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-24 6:44 ` Tony Lam @ 1999-06-24 14:58 ` Peter von der Ahé - at home 1999-06-24 15:37 ` Norbert Koch 1999-06-24 15:48 ` Lee Willis 1 sibling, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Peter von der Ahé - at home @ 1999-06-24 14:58 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "TL" == Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@eng.sun.com> writes: TL> I never want to care about article numbers in the first TL> place. Gnus could have transparently hide those numbers from user TL> completely, or at least provide some satisfactory working TL> solution that can be automated to deal with these situations, and TL> there would be no problems from user regarding article numbers. >>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: Rat> Point: Gnus *DOES* hide those numbers completely (if you tell it Rat> not to display article numbers in the summary buffers). I will not argue that Gnus cannot hide the article numbers completely from plain sight, but that is not the problem here is it? To illustrate what the problem, please try doing the following: (setq gnus-large-newsgroup 2) in .gnus.el Create a new nnml group with G m, copy 3 messages to this group. Mark them all as read. Delete the article with number 2. Exit the group. Enter the group. You will now be asked how many articles you want to see, even though there only is 2 articles in the group. This can be very annoying when you have larges mail groups with gaps. Further more, AFAIK[1], Gnus will consider all messages from the lowest available number to the highest. So if you have a group with a article numbered 1 and the next is numbered 1002, Gnus will have to do something for 1000 article in between, this may not be much, but will amount to a hill of beans in the long run. So for efficiency it would be perfectly sane to provide some kind of renumbering function. [1] Once I had problems entering large mailgroups with gaps, because gnus insisted on stat'ing all nonexistent files from 2 to 1001. I think this problem has gone away, and maybe only the numbers from .overview is used. Cheers, Peter ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 14:58 ` Peter von der Ahé - at home @ 1999-06-24 15:37 ` Norbert Koch 1999-06-24 17:58 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-25 19:47 ` David Hedbor 1999-06-24 15:48 ` Lee Willis 1 sibling, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Norbert Koch @ 1999-06-24 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding In message <yc0hfnxprwg.fsf@whitestar.daimi.au.dk>, nospam2159+ding@daimi.au.dk (Peter von der Ahé - at home) wrote: > To illustrate what the problem, please try doing the following: > > (setq gnus-large-newsgroup 2) > > in .gnus.el > > Create a new nnml group with G m, copy 3 messages to this group. > Mark them all as read. Delete the article with number 2. Exit the > group. Enter the group. You will now be asked how many articles you > want to see, even though there only is 2 articles in the group. This > can be very annoying when you have larges mail groups with gaps. Well, after recognising this problem, you could mark all articles and respool them (B r). This should ease the trouble, shouldn't it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 15:37 ` Norbert Koch @ 1999-06-24 17:58 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-25 19:47 ` David Hedbor 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Tony Lam @ 1999-06-24 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 883 bytes --] * "Norbert" == Norbert Koch <n.koch@eai-delta.de> writes: Norbert> In message <yc0hfnxprwg.fsf@whitestar.daimi.au.dk>, Norbert> nospam2159+ding@daimi.au.dk (Peter von der Ahé - at home) wrote: >> To illustrate what the problem, please try doing the following: >> >> (setq gnus-large-newsgroup 2) >> >> in .gnus.el >> >> Create a new nnml group with G m, copy 3 messages to this group. >> Mark them all as read. Delete the article with number 2. Exit the >> group. Enter the group. You will now be asked how many articles you >> want to see, even though there only is 2 articles in the group. This >> can be very annoying when you have larges mail groups with gaps. Norbert> Well, after recognising this problem, you could mark all Norbert> articles and respool them (B r). This should ease the Norbert> trouble, shouldn't it? Not if the group has cached articles. Tony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 15:37 ` Norbert Koch 1999-06-24 17:58 ` Tony Lam @ 1999-06-25 19:47 ` David Hedbor 1999-06-25 20:56 ` Matt Pharr 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: David Hedbor @ 1999-06-25 19:47 UTC (permalink / raw) Norbert Koch <n.koch@eai-delta.de> writes: > In message <yc0hfnxprwg.fsf@whitestar.daimi.au.dk>, > nospam2159+ding@daimi.au.dk (Peter von der Ahé - at home) wrote: > > > To illustrate what the problem, please try doing the following: > > > > (setq gnus-large-newsgroup 2) > > > > in .gnus.el > > > > Create a new nnml group with G m, copy 3 messages to this group. > > Mark them all as read. Delete the article with number 2. Exit the > > group. Enter the group. You will now be asked how many articles you > > want to see, even though there only is 2 articles in the group. This > > can be very annoying when you have larges mail groups with gaps. > > Well, after recognising this problem, you could mark all articles and > respool them (B r). This should ease the trouble, shouldn't it? It's rather a large and slow job when you have 40 MB of saved mails in some 70 different nnml groups. -- [ Below is a random fortune, which is unrelated to the above message. ] What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet. -- Woody Allen, "Without Feathers" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-25 19:47 ` David Hedbor @ 1999-06-25 20:56 ` Matt Pharr 1999-06-28 1:53 ` Tony Lam 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Matt Pharr @ 1999-06-25 20:56 UTC (permalink / raw) David Hedbor <david@hedbor.org> writes: > Norbert Koch <n.koch@eai-delta.de> writes: > > Well, after recognising this problem, you could mark all articles and > > respool them (B r). This should ease the trouble, shouldn't it? > > It's rather a large and slow job when you have 40 MB of saved mails in > some 70 different nnml groups. Here is some code that automatically goes through all nnml:mail.* groups and do this. (Based on code I use to move old mail from nnml to nnfolder groups. Bits of this could probably be written in a more properly gnus-y way, but it seems to work well as is. elisp coding style feedback happily received.) (defun mmp:crunch-nnml-article-ranges () (interactive) (let ((newsrc (cdr gnus-newsrc-alist)) group) (while newsrc (setq group (gnus-info-group (car newsrc))) (if (and (string-match "^nnml:mail.*" group) (gnus-group-read-group 9999999 t group)) (gnus-atomic-progn (gnus-uu-mark-buffer) (if (> (- (point-max) (point-min)) 0) (gnus-summary-move-article nil group)) (gnus-summary-exit))) (setq newsrc (cdr newsrc))))) -matt -- Matt Pharr mmp@graphics.stanford.edu <URL:http://graphics.stanford.edu/~mmp> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-25 20:56 ` Matt Pharr @ 1999-06-28 1:53 ` Tony Lam 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Tony Lam @ 1999-06-28 1:53 UTC (permalink / raw) * "Matt" == Matt Pharr <mmp@Graphics.Stanford.EDU> writes: Matt> Here is some code that automatically goes through all Matt> nnml:mail.* groups and do this. This is very handy! One minor thing I noticed is that if you do any re-ordering of messages in summary buffer, i.e. threading, sort by score, etc, you may want turn them off before moving the messages. This is to make sure when you tell Gnus to fetch last N messages, it gets the last N most recently arrived messages, not the last N messages in summary display. To achieve this, I'll set gnus-show-threads, gnus-select-group-hook to nil before calling gnus-group-read-group. Regards, Tony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 14:58 ` Peter von der Ahé - at home 1999-06-24 15:37 ` Norbert Koch @ 1999-06-24 15:48 ` Lee Willis 1999-06-24 18:01 ` Tony Lam 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Lee Willis @ 1999-06-24 15:48 UTC (permalink / raw) nospam2159+ding@daimi.au.dk (Peter von der Ahé - at home) writes: > Create a new nnml group with G m, copy 3 messages to this group. > Mark them all as read. Delete the article with number 2. Exit the > group. Enter the group. You will now be asked how many articles you > want to see, even though there only is 2 articles in the group. This > can be very annoying when you have larges mail groups with gaps. Why is it *very* annoying. So you have to hit C-u RET RET. I'd hardly call that vastly inconvenient ... > Further more, AFAIK[1], Gnus will consider all messages from the > lowest available number to the highest. So if you have a group with a > article numbered 1 and the next is numbered 1002, Gnus will have to do > something for 1000 article in between, this may not be much, but will > amount to a hill of beans in the long run. So for efficiency it would > be perfectly sane to provide some kind of renumbering function. Hmm, I agree with this, and I can see your point but Gnus *does have* a renumbering function. Enter the group you wish to renumber with C-u RET (And a further RET if you're prompted). The do the following M P b B m name-of-group RET and all your problems should be solved (Unless of course you have cached articles which you shouldn't in mail groups anyway ...) Lee. -- I was doing object-oriented assembly at 1 year old ... For some reason my mom insists on calling it "Playing with blocks" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 15:48 ` Lee Willis @ 1999-06-24 18:01 ` Tony Lam 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Tony Lam @ 1999-06-24 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1692 bytes --] * "Lee" == Lee Willis <lee@gbdirect.co.uk> writes: Lee> nospam2159+ding@daimi.au.dk (Peter von der Ahé - at home) writes: >> Create a new nnml group with G m, copy 3 messages to this group. >> Mark them all as read. Delete the article with number 2. Exit the >> group. Enter the group. You will now be asked how many articles you >> want to see, even though there only is 2 articles in the group. This >> can be very annoying when you have larges mail groups with gaps. Lee> Why is it *very* annoying. So you have to hit C-u RET RET. I'd hardly Lee> call that vastly inconvenient ... The problem is also being that the number of articles fetched could be far off when there are large gaps in numbers. It becomes worse in virtual group :-<. To me, it *is* very annoying. >> Further more, AFAIK[1], Gnus will consider all messages from the >> lowest available number to the highest. So if you have a group with a >> article numbered 1 and the next is numbered 1002, Gnus will have to do >> something for 1000 article in between, this may not be much, but will >> amount to a hill of beans in the long run. So for efficiency it would >> be perfectly sane to provide some kind of renumbering function. Lee> Hmm, I agree with this, and I can see your point but Gnus *does Lee> have* a renumbering function. Enter the group you wish to Lee> renumber with C-u RET (And a further RET if you're prompted). The Lee> do the following Lee> M P b Lee> B m name-of-group RET and all your problems should be solved (Unless of Lee> course you have cached articles which you shouldn't in mail groups Lee> anyway ...) It does *not* work with groups which have cached articles. Regards, Tony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-23 22:13 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 0:20 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-24 8:42 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-24 17:05 ` Sam Falkner 1999-06-24 9:17 ` Kai.Grossjohann 2 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-24 8:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Stainless Steel Rat, (ding) Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: > I use passive cache to archive messages in the same group in mail and > news because ticked messages can be expired, at least in newsgroups, > and I want one consistent operation for both mail and groups. Besides, > I use tick to mark messages that need to be replied later. Maybe Gnus should interpret the `cache' mark on mail groups as "do not expire, even if the rules otherwise say expire", instead of making a copy of the message? Hmm... On the other hand, a cache *might* make sense for the imap backend ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 8:42 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-24 17:05 ` Sam Falkner 1999-06-24 23:06 ` Sam Falkner 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Sam Falkner @ 1999-06-24 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Since I use caching on mail groups, I'll throw in my usage habits just for the record. I'm not saying it's the one true way, or the best way, or even unique, but it's what I currently like to do. Two reasons I'm doing this: (1) maybe someone else will get an idea that they like from it, and (2) I'd hate for the semantics to change such that I couldn't do what I like. I don't think (2) is likely, but it's my fault if I didn't speak up. * * * I use topics, and occasionally set parameters on both groups and topics via `G p'. I set total-expire to be non-nil at the top of my mail hierarchy. Under mail I have a `reference' topic, and in this topic, I set `total-expire' to nil, and set `expiry-wait' to something like a year. I set `visible' to non-nil, since these groups never get newly arriving mail, so they almost never have unread messages. Normally, the reference topic is unexpanded, except when I want to go looking for something. When reading mail, and I see a message I want to keep, I have two ways I can do it, depending on how I'll try to find it. If the mail got auto-split into a special group, I use `*' to throw it into the cache. This is just like I do for NNTP news, and these are the mail groups that I don't distinguish at all from news. Yes, there are initially two copies of the same message, but one will eventually expire and the other won't. If the message to be kept landed in my `misc' folder, I move it (via `B m') into one of the groups in my `reference' topic. For example, our cafeteria at work announces their holiday schedule for the rest of the year. So I throw it into my `work.policy' folder (or whatever). Since it has a limited lifespan, I can also mark it `E' before I move it there, and it'll last for a year. * * * I like this scheme. My only gripe about caching (I've mentioned before) is that when I change NNTP servers, I have to deal with my cached articles manually. Usually, I move the cache directories aside and ignore it for a while; then, renumber the files in the cache directory to be 1-n (compact; unlikely to clash with existing message numbers), move the directories into place, and rebuild the cache active and nov files. Since I don't change NNTP servers very often, I don't mind too much that this is inconvenient. But with mail, I have no complaints at all. - Sam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 17:05 ` Sam Falkner @ 1999-06-24 23:06 ` Sam Falkner 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Sam Falkner @ 1999-06-24 23:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Argh, I've never read the info page for `article caching', the one that explains `gnus-use-cache'. I read the first sentence, and since I don't have a slow NNTP connection, I skipped the rest of the page. I'll modify my usage habits to use `?' for archiving, and caching only for NNTP, since `?' won't expire with `gnus-use-cache'. Thanks everyone! - Sam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-23 22:13 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 0:20 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-24 8:42 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-24 9:17 ` Kai.Grossjohann 2 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 9:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@eng.sun.com> writes: > * "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > > Rat> Why are you caching mail messages? There is no sane reason to do > Rat> more than 'tick' with `u' so as to prevent articles from being > Rat> expired. > > I use passive cache to archive messages in the same group in mail and > news because ticked messages can be expired, at least in newsgroups, > and I want one consistent operation for both mail and groups. Besides, > I use tick to mark messages that need to be replied later. Hm. With active caching gnus-uncacheable-groups, you can just hit ! or ? on a message, and Gnus will DTRT in both news and mail groups. You could use ! for messages that you need to work on and ? for messages that you just want to keep. (Or, if you don't use total-expire, you could bite the bullet and acknowledge that news is different from mail and mark the mails you want to keep as read rather than dormant ("?").) kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-23 18:34 ` Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated Tony Lam 1999-06-23 19:56 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-24 9:14 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 19:00 ` Tony Lam 1999-07-04 1:30 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 9:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@eng.sun.com> writes: > * Number gap in cached messages can not be removed. When a messages > group (I use nnfolder) has cached articles, I find > respooling/moving/copying messages in the group do not touch > cached articles, also cache groups do not support moving/copy > themselves, thus there is no way to get rid of those huge gaps in > message numbers within Gnus. That's a valid point. But why do you cache messages in nnfolder groups? All you need to do to keep the messages is not to mark them as expirable (or as read if you use total-expire). Do you really want these messages on your disk twice? See the variable gnus-uncacheable-groups to prevent caching for mail groups. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 9:14 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 19:00 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 20:41 ` David S. Goldberg 1999-06-24 21:07 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Tony Lam @ 1999-06-24 19:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding * "kai" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes: kai> That's a valid point. But why do you cache messages in nnfolder kai> groups? All you need to do to keep the messages is not to mark kai> them as expirable (or as read if you use total-expire). The only consistent way to archive articles in place with mails and news is to use "*" to cache them. kai> Do you really want these messages on your disk twice? Initially yes, there will be two copies, but one will be soon expired. To me, consistent interface is more important than disk space used for a few duplicated messages. kai> See the variable gnus-uncacheable-groups to prevent caching for kai> mail groups. Tapping "*" on the article ignores this variable as well as gnus-use-cache thus unconditionally stores the article in cache. The only workaround is to settle down for two interfaces for archiving in mails and news: '?' for nnfolder group and '*' for nntp group (passive caching) and keep reminding myself which backend I'm using. Regards, Tony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 19:00 ` Tony Lam @ 1999-06-24 20:41 ` David S. Goldberg 1999-06-24 21:07 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: David S. Goldberg @ 1999-06-24 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw) > The only consistent way to archive articles in place with mails and > news is to use "*" to cache them. Would it not be consistent if you used `?' to archive instead of `*'? > The only workaround is to settle down for two interfaces for > archiving in mails and news: '?' for nnfolder group and '*' for nntp > group (passive caching) and keep reminding myself which backend I'm > using. I set gnus-use-cache to t and have gnus-uncacheable-groups set to "^nnml". I use then use `?' to archive for both mail and news. I barely notice the extra `*' on summary lines for archived nntp messages. -- Dave Goldberg Post: The Mitre Corporation\MS B325\202 Burlington Rd.\Bedford, MA 01730 Phone: 781-271-3887 Email: dsg@mitre.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 19:00 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 20:41 ` David S. Goldberg @ 1999-06-24 21:07 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 21:38 ` Tony Lam 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 21:07 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: > * "kai" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes: > > kai> That's a valid point. But why do you cache messages in nnfolder > kai> groups? All you need to do to keep the messages is not to mark > kai> them as expirable (or as read if you use total-expire). > > The only consistent way to archive articles in place with mails and > news is to use "*" to cache them. I don't understand. Why don't you set gnus-use-cache to t, set gnus-uncacheable-groups to something matching all mail groups and then use either "!" or "?" to archive messages ("!" if you always want to see them, "?" if not)? kai -- Abort this operation? [OK] [Cancel] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 21:07 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-24 21:38 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-25 6:14 ` Soeren Laursen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Tony Lam @ 1999-06-24 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding * "kai" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes: kai> I don't understand. Why don't you set gnus-use-cache to t, set kai> gnus-uncacheable-groups to something matching all mail groups and kai> then use either "!" or "?" to archive messages ("!" if you always kai> want to see them, "?" if not)? You're right, this is a better solution. I'll change my message marking habit and use it. Thanks for the help. Regards, Tony ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-24 21:38 ` Tony Lam @ 1999-06-25 6:14 ` Soeren Laursen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Soeren Laursen @ 1999-06-25 6:14 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 703 bytes --] Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: > * "kai" == Kai Grossjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes: > > kai> I don't understand. Why don't you set gnus-use-cache to t, set > kai> gnus-uncacheable-groups to something matching all mail groups and > kai> then use either "!" or "?" to archive messages ("!" if you always > kai> want to see them, "?" if not)? > > You're right, this is a better solution. I'll change my message > marking habit and use it. Thanks for the help. I think it would be nice if the manual covered more of this stuff. There are many, many ways of using Gnus but some ways make a lot more sense that others. -- Søren Laursen http://www.tele.auc.dk/~slau/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated 1999-06-23 18:34 ` Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated Tony Lam 1999-06-23 19:56 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-24 9:14 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-07-04 1:30 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-04 1:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Tony Lam <Tony.Lam+ding@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: > When I tell Gnus to read read 300 messages from foo.v, does Gnus > read 100 from each component group or just read the 300 messages > with highest number from the virtual group? There's clever code in nnvirtual.el (by David Moore) that tries to distribute the component articles uniformly over the, er, virtual space. Or something. To take an example: If there are 100 articles in group a, 100 articles in group b, and 200 articles in group c, the component articles are spread kinda like this in the virtual group space: a.1 c.1 b.1 c.2 a.2 c.3 b.2 c.4 ... So when you request the newest 200 articles from a virtual group, you will get the 300 last article numbers in this sequence, which will contain 50 articles from group a, 50 articles from group b, and 100 articles from group c. I think David must be a matematician or something. :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 12:53 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-22 17:48 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Per Bothner @ 1999-06-22 18:33 ` Per Bothner 1999-06-22 18:33 ` Jack Twilley ` (5 more replies) 1999-06-22 19:37 ` some mail annoyances David S. Goldberg 1999-06-23 0:48 ` Dmitry Yaitskov 3 siblings, 6 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Bothner @ 1999-06-22 18:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > > * In general, the Gnus defaults for mail are quite clumsy. > > For example, there should be a single command to delete (make > > expirable) messages and move to the next. I ended up doing: > > Use `E' for that. 'E' does not move to the next message. It also requires a shift. The most common command when reading mail is "delete this message and go to the next one". This *has* to be a single-key command, not requiring any key modifiers. -- --Per Bothner bothner@pacbell.net http://home.pacbell.net/bothner/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 18:33 ` some mail annoyances [deleting mail] Per Bothner @ 1999-06-22 18:33 ` Jack Twilley 1999-06-22 18:54 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-22 19:15 ` Per Abrahamsen ` (4 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Jack Twilley @ 1999-06-22 18:33 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Per" == Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: Per> 'E' does not move to the next message. It also requires a Per> shift. Per> The most common command when reading mail is "delete this Per> message and go to the next one". This *has* to be a Per> single-key command, not requiring any key modifiers. I've read maybe six thousand email messages over the past eighteen months, and not once have I used a command that would delete the current message and go on to the next message. Sure, I'll mark the most recent message read and go on. I could even set things up such that all read messages get deleted when I exit the group, which would have the effect you desire. But I don't. I like mail. I save it. I let it gracefully expire if necessary and archive it as I desire. I see no need for this command. Others may, but I'd never hit it. Please save my keys for more useful commands. Jack. (one with gnus?) -- Jack Twilley jmt at nycap dot rr dot com http colon slash slash jmt dot dhs dot org slash tilde jmt slash ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 18:33 ` Jack Twilley @ 1999-06-22 18:54 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-22 18:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: >> 'E' does not move to the next message. It also requires a shift. Personally, I find swapping the binding of `e' and `E' very useful. I think these two keys are backward, given likelihood of usage of each. The only MUA I've ever seen which does "delete and show next message" is Berkeley Mail's "dp" command. And even that requires *3* keystrokes, because (being ttyline-oriented) a RET is also needed. >> The most common command when reading mail is "delete this >> message and go to the next one". This *has* to be a >> single-key command, not requiring any key modifiers. I don't understand your definition of "most common." For example, what's the standard VM binding for this desired function? Jack Twilley <jmt+usenet@nycap.rr.com> writes: > I see no need for this command. Others may, but I'd never hit it. > Please save my keys for more useful commands. I'm with Jack on this. I understand what Per wants to accomplish, but consider it so trivial as to be not worth establishing a new default keybinding for it. Per is of course free to define a function of his own to do so, and to bind it to some preferred key. Personally, I don't *want* automatic selection of messages, *ever*. This is why I set... gnus-auto-select-first nil gnus-auto-select-next 'quietly gnus-auto-select-same t --karl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 18:33 ` some mail annoyances [deleting mail] Per Bothner 1999-06-22 18:33 ` Jack Twilley @ 1999-06-22 19:15 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 7:10 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-22 19:18 ` Nathan Williams ` (3 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-22 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > 'E' does not move to the next message. It does when I type it. > The most common command when reading mail is "delete this message > and go to the next one". Not when using Gnus. In Gnus, as in any decent newsreader, the most common command is "show next page of this message, or if at the last page, show first page of the next message and mark it read, or if we are at the last message, show the first message of the next group and mark it read, or if we are at the last group, exit to the group list". It happens to be bound to the biggest key on the keyboard. Expiring messages are handled by the news server, or by Gnus setting one of the "expire" group parameters. It is correct that the traditional mail reader usage is different, but if you are using Gnus as you use traditional mail readers, you aren't using it as it was designed to be used. Either you adopt the "mail is news" way of thinking, or you will have to fight Gnus all the way. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 19:15 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-23 7:10 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-23 7:32 ` Yair Friedman ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-06-23 7:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Per Bothner, ding On 22 Jun 1999 21:15:06 +0200 Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > > > 'E' does not move to the next message. > > It does when I type it. > > > The most common command when reading mail is "delete this message > > and go to the next one". > > Not when using Gnus. In Gnus, as in any decent newsreader, the most > common command is "show next page of this message, or if at the last > page, show first page of the next message and mark it read, or if we > are at the last message, show the first message of the next group and > mark it read, or if we are at the last group, exit to the group list". > It happens to be bound to the biggest key on the keyboard. Expiring > messages are handled by the news server, or by Gnus setting one of the > "expire" group parameters. But if you do not want to auto-expire certain groups (like I do not like to auto-expire my inbox), then I agree with Per that the most common command when reading mail is (generalizing slightly :-) "do something with this message and go to the next one" where in gnus, do-something is either a mark of some kind, or moving the article. Moving does go to the next unread message; marking does not. It would be nice if all mark commands had a twin that moves to the next or previous (un)read article (I think Kai mentioned this a few days ago), or a variable gnus-mark-commands-should-move with possible values nil, forward, forward-unread, backward, backward-unread Jaap-Henk P.S.: Did posting styles change? Yesterday I configured it for pgnus 0.84 and it worked fine, then I upgraded to pgnus 0.88 (to fix the X-Face problem) and now it doesn't work anymore... -- Jaap-Henk Hoepman | Come sail your ships around me Dept. of Computer Science | And burn these bridges down University of Twente | Nick Cave - "Ship Song" Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman Phone: +31 53 4893795 === Secr: +31 53 4893770 === Fax: +31 53 4894590 PGP ID: 0xF52E26DD Fingerprint: 1AED DDEB C7F1 DBB3 0556 4732 4217 ABEF ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-23 7:10 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-06-23 7:32 ` Yair Friedman 1999-06-23 7:46 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 12:13 ` Randal L. Schwartz 2 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Yair Friedman @ 1999-06-23 7:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes: > > But if you do not want to auto-expire certain groups (like I do not like to > auto-expire my inbox), then I agree with Per that the most common command when > reading mail is (generalizing slightly :-) > "do something with this message and go to the next one" > where in gnus, do-something is either a mark of some kind, or moving the > article. You can put auto-expire in the Group parameters of high traffic groups. -- Yair Friedman. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-23 7:10 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-23 7:32 ` Yair Friedman @ 1999-06-23 7:46 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 12:13 ` Randal L. Schwartz 2 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 7:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes: > where in gnus, do-something is either a mark of some kind, or moving the > article. Moving does go to the next unread message; marking does not. By default, marking commands go to the next unread message. Thus, something in your setup must be hosed. (Or is this a bug in some pgnus versions?) kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-23 7:10 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-23 7:32 ` Yair Friedman 1999-06-23 7:46 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 12:13 ` Randal L. Schwartz 2 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Randal L. Schwartz @ 1999-06-23 12:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Per Abrahamsen, Per Bothner, ding >>>>> "Jaap-Henk" == Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes: Jaap-Henk> But if you do not want to auto-expire certain groups (like Jaap-Henk> I do not like to auto-expire my inbox), then I agree with Jaap-Henk> Per that the most common command when reading mail is Jaap-Henk> (generalizing slightly :-) "do something with this message Jaap-Henk> and go to the next one" where in gnus, do-something is Jaap-Henk> either a mark of some kind, or moving the article. Moving Jaap-Henk> does go to the next unread message; marking does not. It Jaap-Henk> would be nice if all mark commands had a twin that moves to Jaap-Henk> the next or previous (un)read article (I think Kai Jaap-Henk> mentioned this a few days ago), or a variable Jaap-Henk> gnus-mark-commands-should-move with possible values nil, Jaap-Henk> forward, forward-unread, backward, backward-unread Jaap-Henk> Jaap-Henk Still running qgnus, here's what I do: (defun MERLYN-gnus-expiry-wait-function (ng) "give list.clip a short wait, other lists 7 days, and others marked E 1" (cond ((string-match "^list\\.clip" ng) 1) ((string-match "^list" ng) 7) (t 1))) (setq nnmail-expiry-wait-function 'MERLYN-gnus-expiry-wait-function gnus-total-expirable-newsgroups "^nnml:list\\." ) And I bring all my mailing lists into nnml:list.ding, nnml:list.p5p, etc, where the default is to toss seen articles after 7 days. Other mail groups are expire only when I ask for it. Then it's very visual to me that I can just page forward like a newsgroup in anything called "list.", but I need to hit "E" in anything that isn't. Occasionally, I get it backwards. It does no harm to hit E in a list.* group, but I can sometimes lose from view things in my inbox (not a list.*), so I use ^U = occasionally. This has worked quite well for the two years I've been doing it. Hopefully, the names of these functions have not changed in terry gnus. (Which I'm still threatening to switch to Very Soon Now.) -- Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@teleport.com) Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A> Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 18:33 ` some mail annoyances [deleting mail] Per Bothner 1999-06-22 18:33 ` Jack Twilley 1999-06-22 19:15 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-22 19:18 ` Nathan Williams 1999-06-23 7:51 ` Per Bothner 1999-06-23 6:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann ` (2 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Nathan Williams @ 1999-06-22 19:18 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > The most common command when reading mail is "delete this message > and go to the next one". This *has* to be a single-key command, > not requiring any key modifiers. Several people have already mentioned the tactic of having Gnus (1) automatically mark read messages as expired and (2) remove expired messages quickly or immediately (upon exiting the group). This is what I do (with values of "quickly" ranging from "immediate" for certain highly-topical groups to a couple of weeks for personal mail). It sounds like this satisfies your constraints. Is there something wrong with it, other than the use of the term "expire" instead of "delete"? - Nathan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 19:18 ` Nathan Williams @ 1999-06-23 7:51 ` Per Bothner 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Bothner @ 1999-06-23 7:51 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: per, ding Nathan Williams <nwilliams@primeon.com> writes: > Several people have already mentioned the tactic of having > Gnus (1) automatically mark read messages as expired and (2) remove > expired messages quickly or immediately (upon exiting the group). This is too extreme. I want to have to type a "real" key (but only a single key) to delete a message. Typing just enter or space and having that delete/expire the message is too dangerous. However, "auto-tick" like Kai Grossjohann suggested may be a reasonable option. I don't recall seeing this in the manual or FAQ, but of course being Emacs, I can program it ... But if someone has code for it, I'll try it. [By the way - the name of my "husband" who I set up to use VM, is also Nathan Williams.] -- --Per Bothner bothner@pacbell.net per@bothner.com http://home.pacbell.net/bothner/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 18:33 ` some mail annoyances [deleting mail] Per Bothner ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-22 19:18 ` Nathan Williams @ 1999-06-23 6:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 7:23 ` Yair Friedman 1999-07-04 1:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 5 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 6:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > > > Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > > > * In general, the Gnus defaults for mail are quite clumsy. > > > For example, there should be a single command to delete (make > > > expirable) messages and move to the next. I ended up doing: > > > > Use `E' for that. > > 'E' does not move to the next message. It also requires a shift. `E' moves to the next message or to the next unread message, depending on the value of gnus-summary-goto-unread. > The most common command when reading mail is "delete this message > and go to the next one". This *has* to be a single-key command, > not requiring any key modifiers. You're right. I have the following in ~/.gnus: (define-key gnus-summary-mode-map (kbd "d") 'gnus-summary-mark-as-expirable) Maybe it is necessary to put (require 'gnus-sum) before this. Marking as read is still available as `M r', but marking as expirable also works in news groups. FWIW, I also have: (define-key gnus-summary-mode-map (kbd "C-d") (function (lambda () (interactive) (gnus-summary-mark-as-read)))) which clobbers C-d, so I put that somewhere else: (define-key gnus-summary-article-map "D" 'gnus-summary-enter-digest-group) Entering a digest now works with `A D'. Just my EUR 0.02. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 18:33 ` some mail annoyances [deleting mail] Per Bothner ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-23 6:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 7:23 ` Yair Friedman 1999-07-04 1:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 5 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Yair Friedman @ 1999-06-23 7:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > > > > Use `E' for that. > > 'E' does not move to the next message. It also requires a shift. Use auto-expire then. No keys needed at all. -- Yair Friedman. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [deleting mail] 1999-06-22 18:33 ` some mail annoyances [deleting mail] Per Bothner ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-23 7:23 ` Yair Friedman @ 1999-07-04 1:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 5 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-04 1:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > 'E' does not move to the next message. This depends on the setting of `gnus-summary-goto-unread'. > The most common command when reading mail is "delete this message > and go to the next one". This *has* to be a single-key command, > not requiring any key modifiers. The most common command in a mail reader is "delete and go to the next one", but I do not think that this is what should be the most common command. I think the most common command should be "mark message as read and go to the next article", which is conveniently bound to `d', and happens with `SPC', `N', `P', `n', `p' and a gazillion other commands. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 12:53 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-22 17:48 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Per Bothner 1999-06-22 18:33 ` some mail annoyances [deleting mail] Per Bothner @ 1999-06-22 19:37 ` David S. Goldberg 1999-06-23 0:48 ` Dmitry Yaitskov 3 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: David S. Goldberg @ 1999-06-22 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw) > Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: >> * If in the Summary group, I do M-g in my mail group to check for >> new mail, after new mail is read, point does to the *following* >> group. That's silly default; point should stay at the group I just >> got more mail for. >>>>> Per Abrahamsen writes: > Not if you want to fetch new messages for several groups, I do that > often for foreign nntp groups. Setting gnus-goto-next-group-when-activating to nil doesn't prevent me from doing that and I still get the behavior I (and I think Per Bothner) want when doing M-g on top of a group line. -- Dave Goldberg Post: The Mitre Corporation\MS B325\202 Burlington Rd.\Bedford, MA 01730 Phone: 781-271-3887 Email: dsg@mitre.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 12:53 ` Per Abrahamsen ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-22 19:37 ` some mail annoyances David S. Goldberg @ 1999-06-23 0:48 ` Dmitry Yaitskov 1999-06-23 7:42 ` Per Abrahamsen 3 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Yaitskov @ 1999-06-23 0:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> wrote: <snip-snip> > > * Bottom line: Gnus is not usable as a mail reader for non-hacker > > types. There are just too many options, there is no introductory > > manual, and the defaults are non-intuitive. Even setting it up > > so it suitable for non-hackers is difficult. I ended up setting > > up my boyfriend to use VM. He is not 100% happy with VM, but > > I don't see how gnus could be an option. That is a shame. > > VM is an excellent mail reader, and in itself a good reason why Gnus > should keep working like a news reader. If you want a mail reader > that works according to normal mail reader conventions, VM is there. > However, if you really want to treat your mailbox as a newsspool, Gnus > is the answer. I for example want a something that reads both mail and news, does it well, and is more or less intuitive for both. I do not spend all that much time reading either, and would much rather learn one good program than two. Besides, news and mail are very closely related, so using one prog for both seems natural. Hence I think making gnus as intuitive as possible for both is "a good thing". > > * In there any commend to re-number the messages in a mail folder? > > I'm used to mhe, which would re-use numbers on expired messages, > > and when teh numbers approaches 10000, I would run an mh command > > to renumber the entire folder. Yes, this is an esthetic issue, > > not really important ... > > You can't renumber the usenet messages, why should you be able to > renumber mail messages? Makes no sense from the Gnus point of view. Whereas I do not have a strong opinion about renumbering the messages, I honestly don't see how the impossibility of renumbering usenet messages is relevant to the option of renumbering mail messages in one's own folder. (And besides, somebody's already posted that it *is* possible). E.g. you can't delete (B del) a real news article, whereas you certainly can do that to a mail message. So what? -- Cheers, -Dima. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-23 0:48 ` Dmitry Yaitskov @ 1999-06-23 7:42 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 7:49 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 14:20 ` Dmitry Yaitskov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-23 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmitry Yaitskov <dimas@home.com> writes: > I for example want a something that reads both mail and news, does it > well, and is more or less intuitive for both. I do not spend all that > much time reading either, and would much rather learn one good program > than two. I spend much time on both, and Gnus is definitely optimized for the my kind. With the amount of mail I get, the traditional news reading paradigm[1] simply works far better than mail the traditional mail reading paradigm. > Besides, news and mail are very closely related, so using one prog > for both seems natural. Having different paradigms for mail and news groups removes much of the benefit from having a single program. > Hence I think making gnus as intuitive as possible for both is "a > good thing". It was never a design goal to implement the traditional mail reading paradigm in Gnus (which is what people mean by "intuitive"). While you _can_ set it up to be used that way, it will be a fight. I strongly recommend either using a tool that was designed for that purpose, or even better, start using Gnus as it was designed. The news readign paradigm _is_ very powerful, and you will not have to switch paradigm each time you switch between mail and news groups any more. > Whereas I do not have a strong opinion about renumbering the messages, > I honestly don't see how the impossibility of renumbering usenet > messages is relevant to the option of renumbering mail messages in > one's own folder. Again, it is about how you think about the messages, not about the particular feature. If you think about the numbers as something you should be concerned about, then you think the wrong way. Gnus is designed to make the numbers irrelevant, because it is designed for news where you can't change them. Yes, there are backend specific features. What I'm talking about is the underlying model. Footnotes: [1] Sorry for using that word, but I can't find a better word for "the model of thinking about the messages." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-23 7:42 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-23 7:49 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 14:20 ` Dmitry Yaitskov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 7:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > It was never a design goal to implement the traditional mail > reading paradigm in Gnus (which is what people mean by > "intuitive"). While you _can_ set it up to be used that way, it > will be a fight. It will? With gnus-mark-article-hook, users can configure exactly what they want to happen when a message is read. I don't perceive this to be a fight. Maybe some more user experience is needed with this kind of setup in Gnus. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-23 7:42 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 7:49 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 14:20 ` Dmitry Yaitskov 1999-06-23 19:15 ` some mail annoyances [article number overflow] Karl Kleinpaste 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Yaitskov @ 1999-06-23 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> wrote: <snip> > Having different paradigms for mail and news groups removes much of > the benefit from having a single program. For me at least, there are a lot of benefits even if I do treat mail and news differently. E.g. I do not have to remember different sets of keystrokes for getting in and out of folders, etc. This may sound stupid, but is a big advantage for me. Another example is, I read mail and news in Russian. I had to customize just one program for this, not two. Etc. None of this has to do with models, yet are big advantages for me. I am just trying to make a point that it is not necessary to treat mail and news in exactly the same way to benefit from having a single program. But of course, there are other things that *do* have to do with paradigms, e.g. message threadig in mailing lists like this one. So you're probably right, that it is better to treat both the same. > > Hence I think making gnus as intuitive as possible for both is "a > > good thing". > > It was never a design goal to implement the traditional mail reading > paradigm in Gnus (which is what people mean by "intuitive"). While > you _can_ set it up to be used that way, it will be a fight. I > strongly recommend either using a tool that was designed for that > purpose, or even better, start using Gnus as it was designed. The > news readign paradigm _is_ very powerful, and you will not have to > switch paradigm each time you switch between mail and news groups any > more. Would be very interesting (for me at least) to learn how different people use gnus for mail, how they deal with saving, expiring, etc. > > Whereas I do not have a strong opinion about renumbering the messages, > > I honestly don't see how the impossibility of renumbering usenet > > messages is relevant to the option of renumbering mail messages in > > one's own folder. > > Again, it is about how you think about the messages, not about the > particular feature. If you think about the numbers as something you > should be concerned about, then you think the wrong way. Gnus is > designed to make the numbers irrelevant, because it is designed for > news where you can't change them. BTW. What happens when the article numbers *do* overflow? They are bound to overflow eventually, aren't they? -- Cheers, -Dima. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [article number overflow] 1999-06-23 14:20 ` Dmitry Yaitskov @ 1999-06-23 19:15 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-23 21:02 ` Colin Rafferty 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-23 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmitry Yaitskov <dimas@home.com> writes: > BTW. What happens when the article numbers *do* overflow? They are > bound to overflow eventually, aren't they? This will become an interesting question if and only if you have a mail folder which has received at least 10,000,000,000 messages. That is, the question is not interesting. Typical news servers, such as INN, use 10-digit article numbers, which means they won't overflow until they go past 9,999,999,999. On my 3-year old INN server, even the "control.cancel" and "junk" groups are numbered only into the mid-ten-million range. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [article number overflow] 1999-06-23 19:15 ` some mail annoyances [article number overflow] Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-23 21:02 ` Colin Rafferty 1999-06-23 21:09 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Colin Rafferty @ 1999-06-23 21:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Karl Kleinpaste writes: > Dmitry Yaitskov <dimas@home.com> writes: >> BTW. What happens when the article numbers *do* overflow? They are >> bound to overflow eventually, aren't they? > This will become an interesting question if and only if you have a > mail folder which has received at least 10,000,000,000 messages. You are being too kind to XEmacs. most-positive-fixnum => 1073741823 Of course, if you move to a 64-bit XEmacs before you hit a Gig, there shouldn't be a problem. -- Colin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances [article number overflow] 1999-06-23 21:02 ` Colin Rafferty @ 1999-06-23 21:09 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-23 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Colin Rafferty <craffert@ms.com> writes: > You are being too kind to XEmacs. > => 1073741823 Fair enough. But I still contend that the Gnus mail group which has chewed through a billion messages doesn't exist. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-22 12:53 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-22 12:58 ` David S. Goldberg 1999-06-22 14:33 ` Steinar Bang ` (3 subsequent siblings) 8 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: David S. Goldberg @ 1999-06-22 12:58 UTC (permalink / raw) > I switched to pgnus not too long ago [...] >From an earlier version of gnus? If so, you've been living with this badness for way too long. Most of the suggestions below have been in my .emacs since red gnus, maybe even as far back as September. > * If in the Summary group, I do M-g in my mail group to check for > new mail, after new mail is read, point does to the *following* > group. That's silly default; point should stay at the group I just > got more mail for. (setq gnus-goto-next-group-when-activating nil) fixes this to dtrt. > * If I enter a group, point normally goes to the first unread > message. But if (say) there is only a single new message, that > message becomes the last line in the window, while point goes to the > *middle* of the window. When the list of ticked messages is long, > it starts showing the first old message, rather than the first new > message. I think you want (setq gnus-auto-center-summary nil) though I'm not sure the (IMHO bad) behavior this setting fixed for me is the same as what you're seeing. -- Dave Goldberg Post: The Mitre Corporation\MS B325\202 Burlington Rd.\Bedford, MA 01730 Phone: 781-271-3887 Email: dsg@mitre.org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-22 12:58 ` some mail annoyances David S. Goldberg @ 1999-06-22 14:33 ` Steinar Bang 1999-06-22 16:43 ` Vin Shelton 1999-06-23 14:24 ` Wes Hardaker ` (2 subsequent siblings) 8 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Steinar Bang @ 1999-06-22 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> Per Bothner <per@bothner.com>: [snip!] > * In general, the Gnus defaults for mail are quite clumsy. [snip!] > * In there any commend to re-number the messages in a mail folder? [snip!] The major thing to remember with Gnus, is to let old habits from earlier mail programs go, and just go with the flow and read your mail like it was news. You don't want to renumber messages in a mail folder. You don't even want to *know* the number of a message, anymore that you want to know the message number of a USENET message on a particular server. What I do is use total-expiry, and set up the expiry time to four weeks for the mailgroups that see most traffic. Then I just either - read articles and let them go - mark them as read with "d" - tick them with "u" - mark them dormant with "?" In the case of the first two, the article will reside in the mail group for four weeks and then quietly go away. In the case of the latter two the articles will never go away. This lets me process mail more efficiently than earlier, because my experience is that *if* I will need a message for later, this is most likely to occur within the next four weeks. Now all I need is to get Kai's search engine backend (nnir.el) up and running...:-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 14:33 ` Steinar Bang @ 1999-06-22 16:43 ` Vin Shelton 1999-06-23 6:42 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 6:47 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Vin Shelton @ 1999-06-22 16:43 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> On 22 Jun 1999 16:33:35 +0200, Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> said: Steinar> What I do is use total-expiry, and set up the expiry time to four weeks Steinar> for the mailgroups that see most traffic. Then I just either Steinar> - read articles and let them go Steinar> - mark them as read with "d" Steinar> - tick them with "u" Steinar> - mark them dormant with "?" Steinar> In the case of the first two, the article will reside in the mail Steinar> group for four weeks and then quietly go away. In the case of the Steinar> latter two the articles will never go away. OK, based on yesterday's advice, I'm now trying out expiry. Just to be absolutely clear: I'm using auto-expiry and when I want to preserve an article and keep it from being reaped by the expiry process, I'm using 'd'. Does this preserve the article, or will it magically disappear after the expiry time has lapsed, even though the 'E' mark has gone away. (Still trying to get used to this weird new mail-reading paradigm.) vin shelton -- In a minute there is time For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. T.S. Eliot ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 16:43 ` Vin Shelton @ 1999-06-23 6:42 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 6:47 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 6:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Vin Shelton <acs@xemacs.org> writes: > [...] Just to be absolutely clear: I'm using auto-expiry and when > I want to preserve an article and keep it from being reaped by the > expiry process, I'm using 'd'. Does this preserve the article, or > will it magically disappear after the expiry time has lapsed, even > though the 'E' mark has gone away. [...] This will preserve the article. No articles will be deleted unless it fulfills at least one of the following two criteria: (1) It is marked `E'. (2) Total-expire is turned on for the group and the article is marked as read (`r' or `R' or `O'). kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 16:43 ` Vin Shelton 1999-06-23 6:42 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-23 6:47 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-06-23 6:47 UTC (permalink / raw) On 22 Jun 1999 12:43:11 -0400 Vin Shelton <acs@xemacs.org> writes: > OK, based on yesterday's advice, I'm now trying out expiry. Just to > be absolutely clear: I'm using auto-expiry and when I want to preserve > an article and keep it from being reaped by the expiry process, I'm > using 'd'. Does this preserve the article, or will it magically > disappear after the expiry time has lapsed, even though the 'E' mark > has gone away. That's exactly what I did: I've set all expirable mail to expire immediately when exiting a group (setq nnmail-expiry-wait 'immediate) For some groups (mailinglists like ding for instance), I've set the group parameters to ((auto-expire . t)) such that all articles are marked expirable when I read them. Marking them read with `d' unmarks them expirable: when I leave the group and enter again these articles are still there and marked as old `O'. To make sure that I do not expire articles that I would like to keep after reading them, I have made sure that all expirable articles are highlighted (using the same face as deleted articles) as a clearly visible cue that these articles will be deleted when I exit the group. For this I added the following to my .gnus.el (load "gnus-sum.elc") (setq gnus-summary-highlight (cons '((= mark gnus-expirable-mark) . gnus-summary-cancelled-face) gnus-summary-highlight) ) Note the loading of gnus-sum.elc before prepending the necessary face to gnus-summary-highlight. If omitted, gnus complains about gnus-summary-highlight not being defined and will not start up. Jaap-Henk -- Jaap-Henk Hoepman, Computer Scientist | Sure! We've eaten off the silver Email: jhh@xs4all.nl, Tel: +31 50 5255546 | (when even food was against us) WWW: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jhh | - Nick Cave ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner ` (5 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-22 14:33 ` Steinar Bang @ 1999-06-23 14:24 ` Wes Hardaker 1999-06-24 21:19 ` Per Bothner 1999-07-04 2:19 ` some mail annoyances Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 8 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Wes Hardaker @ 1999-06-23 14:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1375 bytes --] >>>>> On 21 Jun 1999 17:36:24 -0700, Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> said: Per> More generally, for mail the natural classification is old Per> messages, new messages, and deleted messages. Once I have Per> deleted a message, I normally don't want to see it. However, I Per> would like to be able to see old messages. If I do plain space Per> in the Group buffer, I only see new and ticked messages. But if Per> I do ^U-space I get *all* the messages, including the expired Per> ones. This means that to get what I consider normal behavior (as Per> in most other MUAs) I must take one of two acrtions for each new Per> message: Either tick it if I want to save it, or delete it (make Per> expireable) otherwise. Sometimes I forget. This is not very Per> friendly. If you want this now, I'll include a patch I've been using for a few years now that allows you to set the "display" group parameter to "not-expired", so that it will show you old messages. This is essentially what you want. I've always wanted to be able to make the display parameter accept a string, something like "O !", which would be translated into old, new, and ticked, or even better "-E" which would be the same as not-expired. However, the hack I put in place didn't work quickly and I didn't have time to mess with it much more. Lars didn't want to accept the not-expired patch as is. ... [-- Attachment #2: pgnus-patch --] [-- Type: application/x-patch, Size: 3905 bytes --] [-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 81 bytes --] -- "Ninjas aren't dangerous. They're more afraid of you than you are of them." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner ` (6 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-23 14:24 ` Wes Hardaker @ 1999-06-24 21:19 ` Per Bothner 1999-06-25 3:18 ` Christian Nybø ` (2 more replies) 1999-07-04 2:19 ` some mail annoyances Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 8 siblings, 3 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Bothner @ 1999-06-24 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Thanks for the various reponses in this thread. I have gotten work-arounds for some of the annoyances, and I will see how they work out. I think various people have made many of the points I would make. However, let me make one last point (for now): Some have made the point that it is wrong to think of Gnus as a mail-reader - it is a news reader that is also great for reading mail. Trying to force Gnus into the mold of a mail reader violates its "philosophy". That may be the case, but it is wrong philosophy for general users. For almost everybody, mail is much more important than news. Everybody uses mail, but far from everybody uses news. Also, people *start* out dealing with email, and then maybe later they get to reading news. People depend on mail; almost no-one depends on news. Thus it is more important to get mail "right" than it is to get news right. What is the "right" interface will of course differ from person to person, which is why it is nice to be able to customize things. It would be nice if there was a "recommended" mail program, which is powerful, flexible - *and* easy to learn (including having a good introductory manual). Gnus *could* be that recommended mailer for everybody using Emacs. It is very close - it just needs a little bit of usability engineering, some tweaking of the defaults, and some better documentation It certainly has the power and flexibility. However, the defaults are a bit unnatural, the standard keybindings are optimized for news rather than mail, and there is no good introduction to using Gnus. (The latter should *start* by explaining how to use it for mail, since that is what people need *first*.) -- --Per Bothner bothner@pacbell.net per@bothner.com http://home.pacbell.net/bothner/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-24 21:19 ` Per Bothner @ 1999-06-25 3:18 ` Christian Nybø 1999-06-25 20:34 ` Ken McGlothlen 1999-06-25 5:10 ` Russ Allbery 1999-06-25 13:21 ` Per Abrahamsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Christian Nybø @ 1999-06-25 3:18 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: [...] > Gnus *could* be that recommended mailer for everybody using Emacs. > It is very close - it just needs a little bit of usability > engineering, some tweaking of the defaults, and some better > documentation It certainly has the power and flexibility. However, > the defaults are a bit unnatural, the standard keybindings are > optimized for news rather than mail, and there is no good > introduction to using Gnus. (The latter should *start* by > explaining how to use it for mail, since that is what people need > *first*.) Where do you see VM in that picture? -- chr ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-25 3:18 ` Christian Nybø @ 1999-06-25 20:34 ` Ken McGlothlen 1999-06-25 23:51 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Ken McGlothlen @ 1999-06-25 20:34 UTC (permalink / raw) s911254@stud.nhh.no (Christian Nybø) writes: | Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: | | [...] | > Gnus *could* be that recommended mailer for everybody using Emacs. It is | > very close - it just needs a little bit of usability engineering, some | > tweaking of the defaults, and some better documentation It certainly has | > the power and flexibility. However, the defaults are a bit unnatural, the | > standard keybindings are optimized for news rather than mail, and there is | > no good introduction to using Gnus. (The latter should *start* by | > explaining how to use it for mail, since that is what people need *first*.) | | Where do you see VM in that picture? Well, this is just one guy's perspective. Please pardon the narrative form. When I first started using something besides /usr/bin/mail to read my mail and /usr/local/bin/rn to read my news, I chose Emacs, my favorite editor (at that time, somewhere in either late v17 or early v18), and used RMAIL and Masanobu Umeda's GNUS (which at the time, of course, had no mail-reading capabilities). The shortcomings of RMAIL have been covered extensively elsewhere. I hated it, wanted to get back to using something that respected the mbox format, and finally discovered VM. GNUS, on the other hand, I loved, and made a lot of customizations that made it even cooler for me to use. Except for that one sticky point: Umeda-san had basically walked away from it, guaranteeing no further development. You can imagine how relieved and delighted I was when Lars announced he was going to take over development. If memory serves, I think I wrote him a thank-you note when I heard about it. And then Lars pointed out that he wanted to make GNUS handle email as well. Zowie, I thought---VM is a nice enough package (and as you can see from the headers, I still use it, at v6.72), but it has some limitations that rather annoy me. The thought of using a package that would thread my email, and one I didn't have to remember different strokes to, was very, very cool. It hasn't worked out that way. I've tried converting to Gnus on several occasions, but never with any good success. For example, a few months ago, I unexpectedly wound up being CEO of a small, troubled ISP. I was suddenly receiving a LOT of email (this from a guy who's signed up not only to ding@gnus.org, but questions@freebsd.org) that I absolutely had to keep organized. The best way I could think of was to bite the bullet and use Gnus, but needed some quick guidance. I wrote Lars, if memory serves (those first few weeks were a blur), who gave me sound advice, but I couldn't get it working effectively in a short enough amount of time, and wound up using PINE. Ulk. As I said, I'm still using VM, not GNUS. Why? Well, lessee. I have over 400 mail folders comprising over 100MB of email, all in mbox format. I need to conveniently transfer messages between folders (I do occasionally reorganize folders). I do use procmail, but only use it to break out mailing list from personal mail---if I were to use GNUS, I'd like to shuttle it all into appropriate folders, but don't know how to do it in some cases. (For example, mail from userA to me should go in the userA folder, but mail from userA to me *and* userB, userC, userD and userE should go in the groupZ folder.) The deletion/expiration stuff can be a bit confusing; I've lost mail on occasion when trying to convert over. And it's not a matter of just having tried once; I've tried six times to move from VM to Gnus, letting my incoming mail pile up over a couple of days while I try to figure out how to get Gnus to work well, but eventually giving up and going back to VM when I run out of spare time, or when the mail pile gets too huge. There needs to be a "So you use an mbox-style mail reader, and would like to use Gnus?" document somewhere, for example. I'd be happy to write it, even---I'm articulate, after all (well, I think so, at any rate), but I haven't been able to get it working smoothly enough to convert myself. If someone wants to help me work through this process, I'll be more than happy to write up said document. ---Ken ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-25 20:34 ` Ken McGlothlen @ 1999-06-25 23:51 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-26 0:07 ` Ken McGlothlen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-25 23:51 UTC (permalink / raw) -----8< snip > Well, lessee. I have over 400 mail folders comprising over 100MB of > email, all in mbox format. I need to conveniently transfer messages > between folders (I do occasionally reorganize folders). I do use > procmail, but only use it to break out mailing list from personal > mail---if I were to use GNUS, I'd like to shuttle it all into > appropriate folders, but don't know how to do it in some cases. > (For example, mail from userA to me should go in the userA folder, > but mail from userA to me *and* userB, userC, userD and userE should > go in the groupZ folder.) The deletion/expiration stuff can be a > bit confusing; A small point here, about splitting: I believe gnus "fancy splitting" can handle that setup, but if you are already familiar with procmail, then why not use procmail to do the more complicated splitting. Procamil can easily handle the problem you present because you can list as many conditions as you like in a single rule. Gnus can be made to slurp from procmail created spools, putting the messages into similarly named gnus groups. The deletion expiration stuff is a bit confusing but becomes less so if you kind of forget deletion as an option, like you would on an nntp group. Think of deletion as something taken care of by a "higher power" and you just guide its hand as to when with your expiry. Not quite that simple, but as I understand it, if you leave gnus in default settings then nothing in mail gets expired unless you explicitly mark it for expiry with an "E" and then only in about 7 days when the "higher power" kicks in. Taking a word of advice from Karl K. I've switched the bindings of "E" (gnus-summary-mark-as-expirabl) and "e" (gnus-summary-edit-article) Since expiring is much more common function for me. That makes it easier to mark as `expirable', since no <SHIFT> is needed ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-25 23:51 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-26 0:07 ` Ken McGlothlen 1999-06-26 0:19 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-26 13:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Ken McGlothlen @ 1999-06-26 0:07 UTC (permalink / raw) reader@newsguy.com (Harry Putnam) writes (in response to a missive by me): | > (For example, mail from userA to me should go in the userA folder, but mail | > from userA to me *and* userB, userC, userD and userE should go in the | > groupZ folder.) | | A small point here, about splitting: I believe gnus "fancy splitting" can | handle that setup, but if you are already familiar with procmail, then why | not use procmail to do the more complicated splitting. Procamil can easily | handle the problem you present because you can list as many conditions as you | like in a single rule. Hm. True. That wasn't the case when I first started using procmail, and I rarely have use for that feature, so I'd forgotten. But yes, okay. | The deletion expiration stuff is a bit confusing but becomes less so if you | kind of forget deletion as an option, like you would on an nntp group. Think | of deletion as something taken care of by a "higher power" and you just guide | its hand as to when with your expiry. Actually, I've noticed that one of the things that confuses people the most is that messages "disappear" once they've been read. Which is why I say that some article needs to be written that addresses it for people new to Gnus. | Taking a word of advice from Karl K. I've switched the bindings of "E" | (gnus-summary-mark-as-expirabl) and "e" (gnus-summary-edit-article) Since | expiring is much more common function for me. That makes it easier to mark | as `expirable', since no <SHIFT> is needed That's an excellent idea; I wonder why that isn't the default. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 0:07 ` Ken McGlothlen @ 1999-06-26 0:19 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-26 2:05 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-28 13:58 ` Kim-Minh Kaplan 1999-06-26 13:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 1 sibling, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-26 0:19 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Ken McGlothlen <mcglk@serv.net> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 | That's an excellent idea; I wonder why that isn't the default. Because for most of us, manually marking articles expirable is the less- common pastime. We follow the newsreaderly approach to reading mail, that messages marked as read will be expunged automatically as if we were reading from a news server unless we explicitly say otherwise (tick). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3dByNgl+vIlSVSNkRAnQJAKCqwB8dGvZOqI8vIRUY5lzhfyZpagCgqqgB xldI52sJaO+rw9Kub9uDfmE= =VABV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 0:19 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-26 2:05 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-26 2:28 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-28 13:58 ` Kim-Minh Kaplan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-26 2:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * Ken McGlothlen <mcglk@serv.net> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 > | That's an excellent idea; I wonder why that isn't the default. > > Because for most of us, manually marking articles expirable is the less- > common pastime. We follow the newsreaderly approach to reading mail, that > messages marked as read will be expunged automatically as if we were > reading from a news server unless we explicitly say otherwise (tick). Just my own habits, but I find myself wanting to keep more than half of my mail so ticking would be more time consuming than marking the ones I don't want with "E". But I'll admit I am a little leary of either auto or total expire. Heres why: More than once I've had the experience of loosing lots of saved messages when using "total expire". If for one reason or another a group gets all articles marked as unread (M-c) and you do a catchup to get back to something more reasonable, with out taking into account the repercussions, then all ticked or dormant articles (now unticked and undormanted) that are older than expiry-days are history. If I stick to defaults and expunge by hand, and something occurs to mark a group as unread, erasing marks, then nothing is lost to expiry, when catching up. In any event, pretending that reading mail is the same as reading news has to stop at the fact that no amount of ticking will save an nntp article from expiry. Hence the persistent mark, so why continue to act as if mail and news are the same. Several posters have pointed out that persistent marks in nnml or "mail" groups makes no sense. Why? Because it is not a newsgroup, nor is it news. It is not handled by gnus as if it were news either. Nntp posts will be expunged (expired) regardless of your marks, even unread. Gnus knows this. Not so in mail, whatever your settings. Gnus also knows this, and offers several ways to handle mail. So while there may be some confusion amongst gnus users about mail and news being different, Gnus itself understands a fundamental difference. Consequently gnus offers quite a wide variety of functions to deal with the difference between news and mail. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 2:05 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-26 2:28 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-26 2:46 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-26 9:32 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-26 2:28 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 | Just my own habits, but I find myself wanting to keep more than half | of my mail so ticking would be more time consuming than marking the | ones I don't want with "E". You are obviously not on moderate to high volume mailing lists :). Of course, if you unmark all your ticked/dormant articles then catch up, those articles are ripe for expiry. About all I can say to that is, "don't do that." Maybe you have a good reason for it, but I generally do not see the rational behind unmarking an entire group. Then again, rsync is my friend. It should be your's, too. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3dDrhgl+vIlSVSNkRAjuLAJ46EneF3Zia9sA1LEblQp0hZLEpmQCeLdUU yintvdvUqn6wBWZAJ3PCbLc= =tu1Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ head. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 2:28 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-26 2:46 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-27 13:32 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-26 9:32 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-26 2:46 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 > | Just my own habits, but I find myself wanting to keep more than half > | of my mail so ticking would be more time consuming than marking the > | ones I don't want with "E". > > You are obviously not on moderate to high volume mailing lists :). Maybe not, but Redhat lists, or "ding" for that matter, are not considered "quiet" by most. > > Of course, if you unmark all your ticked/dormant articles then catch up, > those articles are ripe for expiry. About all I can say to that is, "don't > do that." Maybe you have a good reason for it, but I generally do not see > the rational behind unmarking an entire group. You must have noticed at one time or another that M-c is rather close to M-x. > Then again, rsync is my friend. It should be your's, too. I did recently start tinkering with rsync, and just in the last few day have written and implemented an elementary backup script using "tar" for $HOME and /etc., so may get a little braver with total expire. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 2:46 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-27 13:32 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-27 21:15 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-27 22:30 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-27 13:32 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 | Maybe not, but Redhat lists, or "ding" for that matter, are not | considered "quiet" by most. *shrug* Some of the lists I am on average 150 messages a day. The 10-15 on ding is negligible to me. | You must have noticed at one time or another that M-c is rather close | to M-x. In my summary buffer, M-c is bound to capitalize-region-or-word. Are you sure you did not change the binding yourself? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3difsgl+vIlSVSNkRAtWqAKDs/8ZX4LxPFFZVRLkq8t8npEUk9wCg1q8z tqS9DFwcaYO7cGjqpxH67Dw= =sZK/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-27 13:32 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-27 21:15 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-28 23:43 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-27 22:30 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-27 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 > | Maybe not, but Redhat lists, or "ding" for that matter, are not > | considered "quiet" by most. > > *shrug* > > Some of the lists I am on average 150 messages a day. The 10-15 on ding is > negligible to me. Is 10-15 really accurate... seems I see as many as 80 or so during MIME rushes : ) > | You must have noticed at one time or another that M-c is rather close > | to M-x. > > In my summary buffer, M-c is bound to capitalize-region-or-word. Are you > sure you did not change the binding yourself? How do you go about capitalizing a region or word in the Summary buffer anyway? : ) Mine is read only In my defautl (fsf) setup M(read ALT)-c doesn't seem to be bound to anything in the summary buffer. And the summary buffer has never caused a problem. Try "group" buffer. On my keyboard ALT-c is right next to Alt-x. And Alt(M)-c removes all marks from a group. It can happen other ways too. One I've posted about in the past is under certain circumstances when calling the agent `unplugged' marks can be removed. Not sure of the exact circumstances, but have had it happen more than once. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-27 21:15 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-28 23:43 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-28 23:43 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Sun, 27 Jun 1999 | Is 10-15 really accurate... seems I see as many as 80 or so during | MIME rushes : ) I got 30 in the past 24 hours or so, which is only 10% of the ~300 non-work messages I just downloaded. [...] | How do you go about capitalizing a region or word in the Summary | buffer anyway? : ) Mine is read only Yep, but that is the default binding. | In my defautl (fsf) setup M(read ALT)-c doesn't seem to be bound to | anything in the summary buffer. And the summary buffer has never caused | a problem. Try "group" buffer. Owch! Okay. Memo to myself: that is BAD. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.8 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3eAitgl+vIlSVSNkRAnOBAJsG075cRIO4R0nVWoq6/U8LSxbdxgCg3pdh mJ6vf6PcoZH4F+ooYC0KDPQ= =drDJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-27 13:32 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-27 21:15 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-27 22:30 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-28 2:49 ` Harry Putnam 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-27 22:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 > > | You must have noticed at one time or another that M-c is rather close > | to M-x. > > In my summary buffer, M-c is bound to capitalize-region-or-word. > Are you sure you did not change the binding yourself? I think Harry was talking about `M c' and `M x', both of which are bound to useful functions in the summary buffer, and it is a bit, err, surprising, if one hits `M c' when `M x' was intended :-) kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-27 22:30 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-28 2:49 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-28 8:09 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-28 2:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > > > * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 > > > > | You must have noticed at one time or another that M-c is rather close > > | to M-x. > > > > In my summary buffer, M-c is bound to capitalize-region-or-word. > > Are you sure you did not change the binding yourself? > > I think Harry was talking about `M c' and `M x', both of which are > bound to useful functions in the summary buffer, and it is a bit, err, > surprising, if one hits `M c' when `M x' was intended :-) I see where you would think that, given the default binding for `M c' and `M x' . I never used those bindings or even knew about them before. My comments were about "META-c" and META-x in group buffer. Imagine you start to say `M-x apropos <RET>' but hit `M-c' first instead. Oops all marks are erased from the entire group. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-28 2:49 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-28 8:09 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-28 15:24 ` Harry Putnam 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-28 8:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > Imagine you start to say `M-x apropos <RET>' but hit `M-c' first > instead. Oops all marks are erased from the entire group. When I hit M-c, Emacs beeps. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-28 8:09 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-28 15:24 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-28 15:50 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-28 15:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > > > Imagine you start to say `M-x apropos <RET>' but hit `M-c' first > > instead. Oops all marks are erased from the entire group. > > When I hit M-c, Emacs beeps. Must be something peculiar in my term or keyboard settings. In group buffer look at `C-h w <gnus-group-clear-data><RET>' Mine shows `M-c' But when going at it a different way: (In group buffer) C-h m shows `ESC c'=gnus-group-clear-data Far as I can tell I have no init or site files that say anything about a binding for M-c, so am assuming it is default setting. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-28 15:24 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-28 15:50 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-28 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > > > Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > > > > > Imagine you start to say `M-x apropos <RET>' but hit `M-c' first > > > instead. Oops all marks are erased from the entire group. > > > > When I hit M-c, Emacs beeps. > > Must be something peculiar in my term or keyboard settings. > In group buffer look at `C-h w <gnus-group-clear-data><RET>' Oh, you are talking about the Group buffer! Sorry, I was talking about the Summary buffer. Right -- M-c is a dangerous key in the Group buffer. Though I've never accidentally hit it -- until just now, I didn't even know it exists. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 2:28 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-26 2:46 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-26 9:32 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-27 13:34 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-26 9:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: > * Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 > | Just my own habits, but I find myself wanting to keep more than half > | of my mail so ticking would be more time consuming than marking the > | ones I don't want with "E". > > You are obviously not on moderate to high volume mailing lists :). I think there are different kinds of mail: news-like mail (from mailing lists, for instance) and personal mail. I treat them differently: news-like mail gets deleted (well, expired) by default unless I explicitly say otherwise, whereas personal mail is kept by default. Do you do this differently? kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 9:32 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-06-27 13:34 ` Stainless Steel Rat 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-27 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE on Sat, 26 Jun 1999 | Do you do this differently? Yes. I keep only the mail that for whatever reason I want to keep. Such mail is always ticked and frequently moved to 'archive' groups. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v0.9.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE3dihWgl+vIlSVSNkRAvSYAKDnCo+XuvRxi+Z45gxd0KCdsxLF4ACeLwjl 3fj8NRbxNfip1OM+Au8SrFg= =DfcM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 0:19 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-26 2:05 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-06-28 13:58 ` Kim-Minh Kaplan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kim-Minh Kaplan @ 1999-06-28 13:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat writes: > * Ken McGlothlen <mcglk@serv.net> on Fri, 25 Jun 1999 > | That's an excellent idea; I wonder why that isn't the default. > > [...] We follow the newsreaderly approach to reading mail, that messages > marked as read will be expunged automatically [...] But this is not the default either. Kim-Minh. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 0:07 ` Ken McGlothlen 1999-06-26 0:19 ` Stainless Steel Rat @ 1999-06-26 13:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-28 15:37 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-26 13:16 UTC (permalink / raw) Ken McGlothlen <mcglk@serv.net> writes: > reader@newsguy.com (Harry Putnam) writes (in response to a missive by me): > > | Taking a word of advice from Karl K. I've switched the bindings of "E" > | (gnus-summary-mark-as-expirabl) and "e" (gnus-summary-edit-article) Since > | expiring is much more common function for me. That makes it easier to mark > | as `expirable', since no <SHIFT> is needed > > That's an excellent idea; I wonder why that isn't the default. I never press `E'. I use total-expire on "low interest mailing lists", and never delete private mail. Why should I? After 10+ years I have ~300Mb in my mail archive, which I believe is around $20 worth of disc space. I don't think $20 is a high price for the ability to track my online correspondance back 10 years. I do press `e' occationally, to remove big attachments. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-26 13:16 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-28 15:37 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-28 20:43 ` Wes Hardaker 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-28 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > I never press `E'. I use total-expire on "low interest mailing > lists", and never delete private mail. I'm of a similar mind. nnml:personal.* never disappear. Once a year or so, I shovel a great deal of mail to nnml:archive.y1998.<some name> with `B m'. nnml:list.* usually have total-expiry set, with the proviso that certain mailing lists where a somewhat long-term memory is important have expiry-wait set to some large value. nnml:list.ding is set this way, with a 45-day delay. I also have some weird ones (such as nnml:tomb, where bad mail [spam] goes to die) that have immediate total-expiry. > Why should I? After 10+ years I have ~300Mb in my mail archive, > which I believe is around $20 worth of disc space. I don't think > $20 is a high price for the ability to track my online > correspondance back 10 years. Yup. I've been using Gnus as a mailer since 1988 or so, back when it was GNUS 2.10 and I'd done some really rather rude hackery to symlink an nnspool configuration into my need for a mail-as-news viewpoint, using too much external shell script hackery for delivery and deletion, because my elisp skill wasn't adequate to the task at the time. Kai's nnir.el is a wondrously good thing for me. --karl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-28 15:37 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-28 20:43 ` Wes Hardaker 1999-06-28 20:57 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Wes Hardaker @ 1999-06-28 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding >>>>> On 28 Jun 1999 11:37:01 -0400, Karl Kleinpaste <karl@justresearch.com> said: >> I never press `E'. I use total-expire on "low interest mailing >> lists", and never delete private mail. Karl> I'm of a similar mind. nnml:personal.* never disappear. Man... How long does it take you to enter groups? -- "Ninjas aren't dangerous. They're more afraid of you than you are of them." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-28 20:43 ` Wes Hardaker @ 1999-06-28 20:57 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-28 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Karl Kleinpaste <karl@justresearch.com> said: >> nnml:personal.* never disappear. Wes Hardaker <wjhardaker@ucdavis.edu> writes: > Man... How long does it take you to enter groups? Not long. "ls -1 Mail/personal/general | wc" says I have 916 messages in nnml:personal.general right now. Remember, though, that I said I send mail approx'ly annually into e.g. nnml:archive.y<YEAR>.<ORIGINAL GROUP NAME> in large groups of #-marked `B m' invocations. Group entry time is not bad at all -- just a second or two, during normal entry when I have a few new messages to read. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-24 21:19 ` Per Bothner 1999-06-25 3:18 ` Christian Nybø @ 1999-06-25 5:10 ` Russ Allbery 1999-06-25 13:21 ` Per Abrahamsen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 1999-06-25 5:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Per Bothner <per@bothner.com> writes: > Gnus *could* be that recommended mailer for everybody using Emacs. It > is very close - it just needs a little bit of usability engineering, > some tweaking of the defaults, and some better documentation It > certainly has the power and flexibility. However, the defaults are a > bit unnatural, the standard keybindings are optimized for news rather > than mail, and there is no good introduction to using Gnus. (The latter > should *start* by explaining how to use it for mail, since that is what > people need *first*.) For what it's worth, everyone I've converted to Gnus I've converted by introducing them to Gnus for news and then over time pointing out that the news interface is a lot better for handling mail too than the mail reader they're currently using and eventually getting them to use Gnus for mail as well. That's the transition path I followed myself. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-24 21:19 ` Per Bothner 1999-06-25 3:18 ` Christian Nybø 1999-06-25 5:10 ` Russ Allbery @ 1999-06-25 13:21 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-25 13:25 ` Didier Verna 2 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-25 13:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Two points: - There are many mail readers imlementing the traditional mail reading model for reading mail. Some of them, like VM, are very good. Gnus is to my knowledge the only mail reader which directly supports the news reading model for reading mail. I think it would be wrong to change the unique Gnus to be just another good mail reader. - For real beginners in mail reading (if there are any of them left) there are no reason why they shouldn't learn the news reading model for reading mail first. I don't think the traditional mail reading model is inherently any more intuitive than the news reading model, it is just more familiar to people who have used other mail readers. A "Beginners Guide for Reading Mail with Gnus" might be a good addition to the manual. The guide shouldn't describe all the options, but only how to read mail the Gnus way. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-25 13:21 ` Per Abrahamsen @ 1999-06-25 13:25 ` Didier Verna 1999-06-25 13:39 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-25 13:43 ` Karl Kleinpaste 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Didier Verna @ 1999-06-25 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes: > A "Beginners Guide for Reading Mail with Gnus" might be a good > addition to the manual. No. A readable manual might be a good addition to the manual :-) Actually, the current manual is more like a reference manual with parts of what should be the user manual splited everywhere. -- / / _ _ Didier Verna http://www.inf.enst.fr/~verna/ - / / - / / /_/ / ENST, INFRES C201.1 mailto:verna@inf.enst.fr /_/ / /_/ / /__ / 46 rue Barrault Tel. +33 (1) 45 81 73 46 75013 Paris, France Fax. +33 (1) 45 81 31 19 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-25 13:25 ` Didier Verna @ 1999-06-25 13:39 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-25 13:43 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-25 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw) Didier Verna <verna@inf.enst.fr> writes: > Actually, the current manual is more like a reference manual with parts of Lars has made this observation a number of times, probably because documentation about Gnus goes into it directly as a function of code development, not as an analysis of what a user needs to do. A genuine users' manual, reflecting thought on how to get along with Gnus in a general sense, would surely be a great improvement. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-25 13:25 ` Didier Verna 1999-06-25 13:39 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-25 13:43 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-25 13:52 ` customizing (was Re: some mail annoyances) Paul Stevenson 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-25 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw) By the way... > To: Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> > Cc: ding@gnus.org If you will add (to-address . "ding@gnus.org") to your group properties for your ding mail group, then when you followup, you'll generate only To: ding@gnus.org which will happily avoid sending extraneous copies to people who will see your comments on the list itself anyway. --karl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* customizing (was Re: some mail annoyances) 1999-06-25 13:43 ` Karl Kleinpaste @ 1999-06-25 13:52 ` Paul Stevenson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Paul Stevenson @ 1999-06-25 13:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Karl Kleinpaste <karl@justresearch.com> writes: > If you will add > (to-address . "ding@gnus.org") > to your group properties for your ding mail group, then when you > followup, you'll generate only > To: ding@gnus.org > which will happily avoid sending extraneous copies to people who will > see your comments on the list itself anyway. Ah, great (I can see its magic at work right now), thanks. When setting this, though, via G c (customize group) I was presented with lots of things I could customize, but before I could read any of the long descriptions of the variables (by clicking [more]) I had to activate the variable first (by clicking the [ ] at the left) before I could read about it. I think it would be better to be able to read about all the variables anyway regardless of whether you have activated them. What think ye all? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner ` (7 preceding siblings ...) 1999-06-24 21:19 ` Per Bothner @ 1999-07-04 2:19 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 2:44 ` Harry Putnam ` (5 more replies) 8 siblings, 6 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-04 2:19 UTC (permalink / raw) This was a useful discussion, and I've now summarized the points for a new node in the manual -- "Mail in a Newsreader". I'll just include it here; please do suggest changes that will make things clearer, since this is a quite important subject. Mail in a Newsreader -------------------- If you are used to traditional mail readers, but have decided to switch to reading mail with Gnus, you may find yourself experiencing something of a culture shock. Gnus does not behave like traditional mail readers. If you want to make it behave that way, you can, but it's an uphill battle. Gnus, by default, handles all its group using the same approach. This approach is very newsreaderly--you enter a group, see the new/unread messages, and when you read the messages, they get marked as read, and you don't see them any more. (Unless you explicitly ask for them.) In particular, you do not do anything explicitly to delete messages. Does this mean that all the messages that have been marked as read are deleted? How awful! But, no, it means that old messages are "expired" according to some scheme or other. For news messages, the expire process is controlled by the news administrator; for mail, the expire process is controlled by you. The expire process for mail is covered in depth in *note Expiring Mail::.. What many Gnus users find, after using it a while for both news and mail, is that the transport becomes more and more irrelevant. What becomes important is the size of the receiving audience. Many people subscribe to several mailing lists. These are transported via SMTP, and are therefore mail. Some people have local news groups which have only a handful of readers. These are transported via NNTP, and are therefore news. The important distinction turns out to be not the transport mechanism, but whether the messages are "personal" or "public". Many users then subtly alter the behavior of Gnus according to these two categories. Some users never get comfortable using the Gnus (ahem) paradigm and wish that Gnus should grow up and be a male, er, mail reader. It is possible to whip Gnus into a more mailreaderly being, but, as said before, it's not easy. People who prefer proper mail readers should try VM instead, which is an excellent, and proper, mail reader. I don't mean to scare anybody off, but I want to make it clear that you may be required to learn a new way of thinking about messages. After you've been subjected to The Gnus Way, you will come to love it. I can guarantee it. (At least the guy who sold me the Emacs Subliminal Brain-Washing Functions that I've put into Gnus did guarantee it. You Will Be Assimilated. You Love Gnus. You Love The Gnus Mail Way. You Do.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 2:19 ` some mail annoyances Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-04 2:44 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 3:19 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 17:00 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Hans de Graaff ` (4 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-07-04 2:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > What many Gnus users find, after using it a while for both news and > mail, is that the transport becomes more and more irrelevant. What > becomes important is the size of the receiving audience. But .... uhh isn't the receiving audience always an audience of one... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 2:44 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-07-04 3:19 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 6:15 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 17:00 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-04 3:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > But .... uhh isn't the receiving audience always an audience of one... Many ones make an audience of "many", while one one makes an audience of "one". :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 3:19 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-04 6:15 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-07-04 6:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > > > But .... uhh isn't the receiving audience always an audience of one... > > Many ones make an audience of "many", while one one makes an audience > of "one". :-) Does this have anything to do with the sound of one hand clapping? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 6:15 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 6:51 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 13:15 ` Hrvoje Niksic 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-04 6:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > > > But .... uhh isn't the receiving audience always an audience of one... > > > > Many ones make an audience of "many", while one one makes an audience > > of "one". :-) > > Does this have anything to do with the sound of one hand clapping? That depends on whom the audience it with. An audience with a king, for instance, sounds quite dissimilar from one hand clapping. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-04 6:51 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 13:15 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-07-04 6:51 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > > > > > But .... uhh isn't the receiving audience always an audience of one... > > > > > > Many ones make an audience of "many", while one one makes an audience > > > of "one". :-) > > > > Does this have anything to do with the sound of one hand clapping? > > That depends on whom the audience it with. An audience with a king, > for instance, sounds quite dissimilar from one hand clapping. Might depend on what the king is the king of too. An audience with the king of hearts might be pretty quiet if you are holding the queen,jack, 10, 9 of clubs. : ) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 6:51 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-07-04 13:15 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Hrvoje Niksic @ 1999-07-04 13:15 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > That depends on whom the audience it with. An audience with a king, > for instance, sounds quite dissimilar from one hand clapping. It's the sound of one note. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 2:44 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 3:19 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-04 17:00 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-04 19:01 ` Harry Putnam 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-07-04 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > But .... uhh isn't the receiving audience always an audience of one... The above sentence was received by all members of the Gnus mailing list. Which makes the audience a bit larger than one :-) kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 17:00 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-07-04 19:01 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 19:31 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Harry Putnam @ 1999-07-04 19:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > > > But .... uhh isn't the receiving audience always an audience of one... > > The above sentence was received by all members of the Gnus mailing > list. Which makes the audience a bit larger than one :-) It was supposed to be a light hearted, joking comment... next time I'll remember to include the smiley. : ) Lars comments are good though and do describe the way a persons usage leans after using Gnus a while. The part that will prove the most usefull and descritive I think is the first few paras where he first warns of a "Culture Shock" then proceeds to descibes what "Newsreaderly" is. At least some of the main things. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 19:01 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-07-04 19:31 ` Kai.Grossjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-07-04 19:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes: > It was supposed to be a light hearted, joking comment... next time I'll > remember to include the smiley. : ) Oh. Hm. It must've been the heat :-| >30 degrees centigrade here and high moisture. (Being used to something like 15 or 20 degrees.) kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 2:19 ` some mail annoyances Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 2:44 ` Harry Putnam @ 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Hans de Graaff 1999-07-05 3:11 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 16:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann ` (3 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Hans de Graaff @ 1999-07-04 6:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > I'll just include it here; please do suggest changes that will make > things clearer, since this is a quite important subject. It's clear to me, but I would expect it to be clear to most people on this list. What is needed here is some testing on unsuspecting users who don't read mail with Gnus. Perhaps posting it in gnu.emacs.gnus might get you some more useful feeedback. > Gnus, by default, handles all its group using the same approach. s > This approach is very newsreaderly--you enter a group, see the > new/unread messages, and when you read the messages, they get marked as > read, and you don't see them any more. (Unless you explicitly ask for > them.) > I don't mean to scare anybody off, but I want to make it clear that > you may be required to learn a new way of thinking about messages. > After you've been subjected to The Gnus Way, you will come to love it. If you won't trademark The Gnus Way(tm), I think I will. Hans ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Hans de Graaff @ 1999-07-05 3:11 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-05 3:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Hans de Graaff <graaff@xs4all.nl> writes: > If you won't trademark The Gnus Way(tm), I think I will. :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 2:19 ` some mail annoyances Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 2:44 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Hans de Graaff @ 1999-07-04 16:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-05 3:13 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ` (3 more replies) 1999-07-04 18:18 ` lconrad ` (2 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 4 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-07-04 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Gnus does not behave like traditional mail readers. If you want to > make it behave that way, you can, but it's an uphill battle. I think that a function which is like gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read except that it ticks articles rather than marking them as read is useful for mail groups, and will go a long way to making Gnus behave like traditional mail readers. (Err, you also need to put this function in gnus-mark-article-hook, of course.) What else is needed? Turning on total-expire? Is that sufficient? I think there is no harm done in providing a few convenience functions and maybe a bit of advice (read: sample Lisp code) for people who wish to do this, so that they can try it for a couple of months before realizing that they didn't want this in the first place :-) What do you think? kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 16:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-07-05 3:13 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-05 9:28 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-05 7:45 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-05 3:13 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > I think that a function which is like gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read > except that it ticks articles rather than marking them as read is > useful for mail groups, and will go a long way to making Gnus behave > like traditional mail readers. (Err, you also need to put this > function in gnus-mark-article-hook, of course.) > > What else is needed? Turning on total-expire? Is that sufficient? Well, don't people who want a Real Mail Reader want to explicitly delete mail? > I think there is no harm done in providing a few convenience functions > and maybe a bit of advice (read: sample Lisp code) for people who wish > to do this, so that they can try it for a couple of months before > realizing that they didn't want this in the first place :-) > > What do you think? Sounds like a good idea. Want to write the section in the manual that discusses this? :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-05 3:13 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-05 9:28 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-06 3:58 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-07-05 9:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > > > I think that a function which is like gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read > > except that it ticks articles rather than marking them as read is > > useful for mail groups, and will go a long way to making Gnus behave > > like traditional mail readers. (Err, you also need to put this > > function in gnus-mark-article-hook, of course.) > > > > What else is needed? Turning on total-expire? Is that sufficient? > > Well, don't people who want a Real Mail Reader want to explicitly > delete mail? Exactly. Please note the function which is like gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read except that it ticks articles rather than marking them as read. kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-05 9:28 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-07-06 3:58 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-06 3:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > > > What else is needed? Turning on total-expire? Is that sufficient? > > > > Well, don't people who want a Real Mail Reader want to explicitly > > delete mail? > > Exactly. Please note the function which is like > gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read except that it ticks articles rather > than marking them as read. Yeah, but I meant "delete" as in `B DEL', not as in "mark as read and then let expiry handle it". Er. But when you use total-expire, there's not much of a difference, is there? Never mind. :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 16:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-05 3:13 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-05 7:45 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-07-06 4:02 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-05 16:22 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-07-13 5:22 ` Rob Browning 3 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-07-05 7:45 UTC (permalink / raw) On 04 Jul 1999 18:58:17 +0200 Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > > > Gnus does not behave like traditional mail readers. If you want to > > make it behave that way, you can, but it's an uphill battle. > > I think that a function which is like gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read > except that it ticks articles rather than marking them as read is > useful for mail groups, and will go a long way to making Gnus behave > like traditional mail readers. (Err, you also need to put this > function in gnus-mark-article-hook, of course.) > > What else is needed? Turning on total-expire? Is that sufficient? > > I think there is no harm done in providing a few convenience functions > and maybe a bit of advice (read: sample Lisp code) for people who wish > to do this, so that they can try it for a couple of months before > realizing that they didn't want this in the first place :-) > > What do you think? What I would really love to see is a group/topic parameter called, say, group-type with two possible values 'mail-group and 'news-group. This parameter would modify the behaviour of this group to be `like a newsgroup' (the default) or `like a mail group'. The latter would ensure that - all articles (read and unread) are visible (e.g. like (display . all)) - the first unread article is selected when opening - the group is always visible (e.g. like (visible . t)) - replies are Gcc:-ed to the current group (gcc-self . t) - will have auto-expire off (auto-expire . nil) - will immediately expire all expirable articles (expiry-wait . immediate) - all mark commands move to the next article, be it read or unread (the current default is to move to the next unread article) and perhaps also - set display to threaded mode Just my opinion of course... Jaap-Henk -- Jaap-Henk Hoepman | Come sail your ships around me Dept. of Computer Science | And burn these bridges down University of Twente | Nick Cave - "Ship Song" Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman Phone: +31 53 4893795 === Secr: +31 53 4893770 === Fax: +31 53 4894590 PGP ID: 0xF52E26DD Fingerprint: 1AED DDEB C7F1 DBB3 0556 4732 4217 ABEF ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-05 7:45 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-07-06 4:02 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-06 6:47 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-06 4:02 UTC (permalink / raw) Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes: > What I would really love to see is a group/topic parameter called, > say, group-type with two possible values 'mail-group and > 'news-group. This sounds workable... > - all articles (read and unread) are visible (e.g. like (display . all)) > - the first unread article is selected when opening This is the default, isn't it? > - the group is always visible (e.g. like (visible . t)) > - replies are Gcc:-ed to the current group (gcc-self . t) > - will have auto-expire off (auto-expire . nil) Well, er, why? auto-expire only makes sense in mail groups... > - will immediately expire all expirable articles (expiry-wait . immediate) I don't like that much. > - all mark commands move to the next article, be it read or unread > (the current default is to move to the next unread article) > - set display to threaded mode But that's the default? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-06 4:02 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-06 6:47 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-07-06 15:54 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-07-06 6:47 UTC (permalink / raw) On 06 Jul 1999 06:02:30 +0200 Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes: > > > What I would really love to see is a group/topic parameter called, > > say, group-type with two possible values 'mail-group and > > 'news-group. > > This sounds workable... > > > - all articles (read and unread) are visible (e.g. like (display . all)) > > - the first unread article is selected when opening > > This is the default, isn't it? I believ so, yes. > > - the group is always visible (e.g. like (visible . t)) > > - replies are Gcc:-ed to the current group (gcc-self . t) > > - will have auto-expire off (auto-expire . nil) > > Well, er, why? auto-expire only makes sense in mail groups... Well, see below. The `gnus way' of deleting articles is to mark them expirable and to expire them later, right. So when using gnus to read mail, the only quirk one needs to learn is that delete = mark expirable. To make this look as much as an immediate delete, expiry-wait should be set to immediate. For mail, the default for a read article is _not_ to delete it (at least for most mail readers it isn't :-); hence auto-expire should be nil. Deleting (ie. expiring) should require explicit action by the (novice) user. > > > - will immediately expire all expirable articles (expiry-wait . immediate) > > I don't like that much. Well, see above. > > > - all mark commands move to the next article, be it read or unread > > (the current default is to move to the next unread article) > > - set display to threaded mode > > But that's the default? Ah yes, I should have said: - set display to threaded mode with subtrees hidden. Perhaps it should be set up such that any change of a group/topic parameter after setting group-type overrides the (implicit) setting of that parameter by group-type. E.g. to set expiry-wait to some other value. Jaap-Henk -- Jaap-Henk Hoepman | Come sail your ships around me Dept. of Computer Science | And burn these bridges down University of Twente | Nick Cave - "Ship Song" Email: hoepman@cs.utwente.nl === WWW: www.cs.utwente.nl/~hoepman Phone: +31 53 4893795 === Secr: +31 53 4893770 === Fax: +31 53 4894590 PGP ID: 0xF52E26DD Fingerprint: 1AED DDEB C7F1 DBB3 0556 4732 4217 ABEF ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-06 6:47 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-07-06 15:54 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-06 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Jaap-Henk Hoepman <hoepman@cs.utwente.nl> writes: > Well, see below. The `gnus way' of deleting articles is to mark them > expirable and to expire them later, right. So when using gnus to > read mail, the only quirk one needs to learn is that delete = mark > expirable. To make this look as much as an immediate delete, > expiry-wait should be set to immediate. Right; I see. > Ah yes, I should have said: > - set display to threaded mode with subtrees hidden. I don't think it's a good idea to "hide" stuff in a group buffer. At least not by semi-default. > Perhaps it should be set up such that any change of a group/topic parameter > after setting group-type overrides the (implicit) setting of that parameter > by group-type. E.g. to set expiry-wait to some other value. Hm, yes. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 16:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-05 3:13 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-05 7:45 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman @ 1999-07-05 16:22 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-07-05 18:32 ` François Pinard 1999-07-06 3:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-13 5:22 ` Rob Browning 3 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-07-05 16:22 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, >>>>> On 04 Jul 1999 18:58:17 +0200 >>>>> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE said: Kai> I think that a function which is like Kai> gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read except that it ticks articles Kai> rather than marking them as read is useful for mail groups, and Kai> will go a long way to making Gnus behave like traditional mail Kai> readers. Kai> What else is needed? Changing the default of red for ticked articles to a less alerting color. Robbe -- Robert Bihlmeyer reads: Deutsch, English, MIME, Latin-1, NO SPAM! <robbe@orcus.priv.at> <http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426626/sig.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-05 16:22 ` Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-07-05 18:32 ` François Pinard 1999-07-07 11:30 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-07-06 3:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1999-07-05 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding Robert Bihlmeyer <e9426626@stud2.tuwien.ac.at> writes: > Kai> What else is needed? > Changing the default of red for ticked articles to a less alerting > color. I've not much experience with ticked articles, but I just want to voice that for me, the current color for them is appropriate. So far! When I fall asleep on `SPC', these articles will be automatically skipped, despite they need to be attended one of these days, so I like that Gnus tries to keep me awake and alert. And besides, there is little danger that the current color blends in the surroundings because of too much color similarity. :-) -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-05 18:32 ` François Pinard @ 1999-07-07 11:30 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-07-07 14:20 ` François Pinard 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-07-07 11:30 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, >>>>> On 05 Jul 1999 14:32:21 -0400 >>>>> François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> said: FP> Robert Bihlmeyer <e9426626@stud2.tuwien.ac.at> writes: FP> I've not much experience with ticked articles, but I just want to FP> voice that for me, the current color for them is appropriate. Alerting Red is good for the normal ticked semantic ("something that I have to work on in the future"), but no good for Kai's "old mail gets ticked" scheme. IMHO, YMMV, etc. Robbe -- Robert Bihlmeyer reads: Deutsch, English, MIME, Latin-1, NO SPAM! <robbe@orcus.priv.at> <http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426626/sig.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-07 11:30 ` Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-07-07 14:20 ` François Pinard 1999-07-07 14:22 ` Lee Willis 1999-07-12 11:40 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 0 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: François Pinard @ 1999-07-07 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Bihlmeyer <e9426626@stud2.tuwien.ac.at> écrit: > Alerting Red is good for the normal ticked semantic ("something that > I have to work on in the future"), but no good for Kai's "old mail > gets ticked" scheme. So, you are saying that the default is OK for the normal semantics. :-) I presume that all colours are customisable? > IMHO, YMMV, etc. I'm not an English speaker, so I do not have the genius for figuring out all of those acronyms (yet I get some pleasure when I succeed :-). I already know `IHMO', but `YMMV' is new to me. What does it stand for? :-) -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-07 14:20 ` François Pinard @ 1999-07-07 14:22 ` Lee Willis 1999-07-12 11:40 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lee Willis @ 1999-07-07 14:22 UTC (permalink / raw) François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: > > IMHO, YMMV, etc. > > I'm not an English speaker, so I do not have the genius for figuring > out all of those acronyms (yet I get some pleasure when I succeed :-). > I already know `IHMO', but `YMMV' is new to me. What does it stand for? :-) Your Mileage May Vary ... HTH :) Lee. -- I was doing object-oriented assembly at 1 year old ... For some reason my mom insists on calling it "Playing with blocks" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-07 14:20 ` François Pinard 1999-07-07 14:22 ` Lee Willis @ 1999-07-12 11:40 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-07-12 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, >>>>> On 07 Jul 1999 10:20:10 -0400 >>>>> François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> said: FP> So, you are saying that the default is OK for the normal FP> semantics. :-) That's what I said the whole time. But we were talking about a one-stop-solution (something like setting a single variable) to modify the mail-handling to suit some peoples expectations. This should change the default ticked color, too. FP> I already know `IHMO', but `YMMV' is new to me. What does it FP> stand for? :-) "Your mileage may vary". See <URL:http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/YMMV.html> for details. Robbe -- Robert Bihlmeyer reads: Deutsch, English, MIME, Latin-1, NO SPAM! <robbe@orcus.priv.at> <http://stud2.tuwien.ac.at/~e9426626/sig.html> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-05 16:22 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-07-05 18:32 ` François Pinard @ 1999-07-06 3:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-06 3:59 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Bihlmeyer <e9426626@stud2.tuwien.ac.at> writes: > Changing the default of red for ticked articles to a less alerting > color. Firebrickred doesn't seem all that scary to me... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 16:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 1999-07-05 16:22 ` Robert Bihlmeyer @ 1999-07-13 5:22 ` Rob Browning 1999-07-13 11:29 ` Kai Großjohann 3 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Rob Browning @ 1999-07-13 5:22 UTC (permalink / raw) Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE writes: > I think that a function which is like gnus-summary-mark-unread-as-read > except that it ticks articles rather than marking them as read is > useful for mail groups, and will go a long way to making Gnus behave > like traditional mail readers. (Err, you also need to put this > function in gnus-mark-article-hook, of course.) Would ticking or making them dormant be a better default if you're going to do this? I'd guess the latter since I'd imagine that the user wouldn't expect read articles to show up in the summary buffer next time unless explicitly requested. Perhaps I'm not familiar enough with what other MUAs do... -- Rob Browning <rlb@cs.utexas.edu> PGP=E80E0D04F521A094 532B97F5D64E3930 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-13 5:22 ` Rob Browning @ 1999-07-13 11:29 ` Kai Großjohann 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 1999-07-13 11:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Rob Browning <rlb@cs.utexas.edu> writes: > I'd guess the latter since I'd imagine that the user wouldn't expect > read articles to show up in the summary buffer next time unless > explicitly requested. Perhaps I'm not familiar enough with what other > MUAs do... My point was more that the user would expect to see *all* articles (except the deleted ones). Another way to achieve this (sort of) is to set the display group parameter to all. Hm. Maybe setting expire wait to immediate and setting display to all would be another viable alternative? kai -- Life is hard and then you die. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 2:19 ` some mail annoyances Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 1999-07-04 16:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann @ 1999-07-04 18:18 ` lconrad 1999-07-05 3:17 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-07 0:34 ` Peter von der Ahé 1999-07-28 7:36 ` Rob Browning 5 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: lconrad @ 1999-07-04 18:18 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: Lars> What many Gnus users find, after using it a while for Lars> both news and mail, is that the transport becomes more and Lars> more irrelevant. What becomes important is the size of the Lars> receiving audience. Lars> Many people subscribe to several mailing lists. These Lars> are transported via SMTP, and are therefore mail. Some Lars> people have local news groups which have only a handful of Lars> readers. These are transported via NNTP, and are therefore Lars> news. Lars> The important distinction turns out to be not the Lars> transport mechanism, but whether the messages are "personal" Lars> or "public". Many users then subtly alter the behavior of Lars> Gnus according to these two categories. I think this needs some rewriting. I'm sure we all know what you're talking about, but a new gnus user who hasn't done any customizing and doesn't even know what the customizing options are, needs a different explanation. My own take on this is that I expire mail that is really "news", that is, someone else is in charge of archiving it somewhere else. I also make a distinction (in how readily I interrupt what I'm doing to read the group) between groups which might contain discussion of an issue I am immediately interested in and those which probably won't, which is sometimes the same as the distinction between the groups where I contribute and groups where I'm a "lurker". I haven't actually done any customizing of score files to automate this distinction, but the thing I would most miss if I couldn't use gnus to read my mail is the ability to read the different groups in their order of importance to me. So here's a rewrite that might explain a little more to a new user: Laura> What many Gnus users find, after using it a while for Laura> both news and mail, is that the transport mechanism has Laura> very little to do with how they want to treat a message. Laura> Many people subscribe to several mailing lists. These are Laura> transported via SMTP, and are therefore mail. But we might Laura> go for weeks without answering, or even reading these Laura> messages very carefully. We may not need to save them Laura> because if we should need to read one again, they are Laura> archived somewhere else. Laura> Some people have local news groups which have only a Laura> handful of readers. These are transported via NNTP, and Laura> are therefore news. But we may need to read and answer a Laura> large fraction of the messages very carefully in order to Laura> do our work. And there may not be an archive, so we may Laura> need to save the interesting messages the same way we would Laura> personal mail. Laura> The important distinction turns out to be not the Laura> transport mechanism, but other factors such as how Laura> interested we are in the subject matter, or how easy it is Laura> to retrieve the message if we need to read it again. Laura> Gnus provides many options for sorting mail into "groups" Laura> (discussed in * Splitting Mail:: ) which behave like Laura> newsgroups, and for treating each group (whether mail or Laura> news) differently. -- Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 18:18 ` lconrad @ 1999-07-05 3:17 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-05 3:17 UTC (permalink / raw) lconrad@world.std.com writes: > So here's a rewrite that might explain a little more to a new user: Thanks; I'm including your version in 0.92. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 2:19 ` some mail annoyances Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 1999-07-04 18:18 ` lconrad @ 1999-07-07 0:34 ` Peter von der Ahé 1999-07-07 2:46 ` lconrad 1999-07-09 16:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-28 7:36 ` Rob Browning 5 siblings, 2 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Peter von der Ahé @ 1999-07-07 0:34 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "LMI" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: LMI> Gnus, by default, handles all its group using the same approach. LMI> This approach is very newsreaderly--you enter a group, see the LMI> new/unread messages, and when you read the messages, they get marked as LMI> read, and you don't see them any more. (Unless you explicitly ask for LMI> them.) I remember that "explicitly asking for them" was a problem for me when I first started using Gnus. I think a note about C-u SPC in the group buffer or C-u C-x C-s in the summary buffer would be nice. Cheers, Peter ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-07 0:34 ` Peter von der Ahé @ 1999-07-07 2:46 ` lconrad 1999-07-09 16:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1 sibling, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: lconrad @ 1999-07-07 2:46 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Ahe" == Peter von der Ahi <pahe@daimi.au.dk> writes: Ahe> I remember that "explicitly asking for them" was a problem Ahe> for me when I first started using Gnus. I think a note about Ahe> C-u SPC in the group buffer or C-u C-x C-s in the summary Ahe> buffer would be nice. It's certainly a FAQ. -- Laura (mailto:lconrad@world.std.com , http://www.world.std.com/~lconrad/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-07 0:34 ` Peter von der Ahé 1999-07-07 2:46 ` lconrad @ 1999-07-09 16:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-09 18:39 ` Peter von der Ahé 1 sibling, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-09 16:59 UTC (permalink / raw) pahe@daimi.au.dk (Peter von der Ahé) writes: > I remember that "explicitly asking for them" was a problem for me when > I first started using Gnus. I think a note about C-u SPC in the group > buffer or C-u C-x C-s in the summary buffer would be nice. I didn't want to get bogged down in specifics in this section; just give an overview of how Gnus treats mail. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-09 16:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-09 18:39 ` Peter von der Ahé 1999-07-09 19:15 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 152+ messages in thread From: Peter von der Ahé @ 1999-07-09 18:39 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "LMI" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: LMI> pahe@daimi.au.dk (Peter von der Ahé) writes: >> I remember that "explicitly asking for them" was a problem for me >> when I first started using Gnus. I think a note about C-u SPC in >> the group buffer or C-u C-x C-s in the summary buffer would be >> nice. LMI> I didn't want to get bogged down in specifics in this section; LMI> just give an overview of how Gnus treats mail. Then just insert a reference, if you please. How about Something like: Unless you explicitly ask for them (*note Selecting a Group::.) Cheers, Peter ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-09 18:39 ` Peter von der Ahé @ 1999-07-09 19:15 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 1999-07-09 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw) pahe@daimi.au.dk (Peter von der Ahé) writes: > How about Something like: > > Unless you explicitly ask for them (*note Selecting a Group::.) I'd rather not. People tend to follow references and stop reading. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
* Re: some mail annoyances 1999-07-04 2:19 ` some mail annoyances Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 1999-07-07 0:34 ` Peter von der Ahé @ 1999-07-28 7:36 ` Rob Browning 5 siblings, 0 replies; 152+ messages in thread From: Rob Browning @ 1999-07-28 7:36 UTC (permalink / raw) (Having mail problems. First try bounced. Hope everyone doesn't get this twice.) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes: > Gnus, by default, handles all its group using the same approach. (A while back, I started this elaboration to your post and then forgot about it. Now that I've come across it again, I don't really have time ATM to polish it up properly, but perhaps it's got some merit as is. I don't know if you'll find it useful, and perhaps it should go in some other section of the docs, but I thought it might help the new but somewhat clueful user understand what's going on with mail expiry so that they'll be better equipped to decide how they'd like to handle their own mail. Feel free to correct any errors. This was drawn from my current understanding of mail article disposition, but I very well may have it wrong... Oh, and I'm missing a few useful cross-references in here, and I need the code snippet at the bottom that explains how to get Gnus to "re-mark" read articles to dormant (or whatever) just after you read them.) Gnus, by default, wants to handle all its groups, both mail and news, using the same approach. This approach is very newsreaderly --- when you enter a group, you will see any new or unread messages. Whenever you read a message, it will get marked as read, and you won't see it again unless you explicitly ask for it. You will also always see any messages that you have marked as ticked (!), and any message you marked as dormant, but you'll only see the dormant ones if and only if it has unread or ticked followup articles. This explains what you can expect to *see*, but this tells you nothing about one of the more important issues when using Gnus for mail, that of article lifetimes, of determining when your articles be deleted forever. For news groups, message "deletion" (or expiry) is handled by the news server. After some period of time, older messages are just gone, so if you want to keep some of them around, you better do something about it (*note Persistent Articles::.). Until messages are expired (deleted) by the server, you can always ask to see them again. With mail articles, it's more complex. Mail articles are stored locally, on your machine, so it's up to you to decide how articles might eventually meet their demise. Which options you want will depend on your own personal habits, and perhaps more importantly, on how you think about the content of a given mail group; is it this a group where you want to keep most of the articles, or one you just skim for the high points and don't care too much about older content? As usual, Gnus gives you plenty of rope to hang... ahem, uh, rather a plethora of options for handling the situation. First it's important to note how the non-scoring marks interact with mail article disposition. Ticked, dormant, and unread articles will never be deleted through an automatic process. It's only the read (and expired -- more later) articles that you have to be concerned with. Further, if you mark any mail articles as persistent, even though the actual mail group article might be deleted through the mechanisms described below, the cached copy will still be available. So how does Gnus decide which articles to delete? Gnus makes the decision based on the article's non-scoring marks and its age. From the perspective of mail article expiry (deletion) purposes, there are three main types of mail groups, total-expirable ones, auto-expirable ones, and "manually-expirable" ones. In total-expirable groups, any read articles will eventually be deleted. Since Gnus, by default, marks articles you've looked at as "read", this means that most articles in total-expirable groups will eventually be deleted unless you intervene and change the article's mark. When the deletion happens is controlled by the setting of expiry-wait. To keep an article from being deleted, you have to make sure it's marked as either ticked, dormant, or unread. Gnus scans total-expirable groups when they are exited for all read articles that match the current expiration criterion; matching articles are deleted. For large groups, this can be expensive, so you may want to use demon-expiry --- it's quite slick. Also, total-expirable groups are the only ones that will let you play with all of Gnus' scoring related bells and whistles. In particular, this is the only group type for which adaptive scoring works because it's the only one that doesn't rely on the expirable mark ('E'). (Marking an article as expirable messes up adaptive scoring because Gnus can no longer determine the difference between read and deleted articles (is that the right explanation?)). In auto-expirable and manually-expirable groups, read articles are never automatically deleted, only articles explicitly marked expirable (articles that have, one way or another, been given the 'E' mark), will be deleted according to expiry-wait. The difference between auto-expirable and manually-expirable groups is in how the articles get marked as expired. In auto-expirable groups, any article you read is automatically switched (just after you read it) from "read" to expirable (i.e. the mark changes from 'r' or 'R' to 'E'), so the default for articles you look at, if you do nothing else to them, is for them end up marked expired ('E'). In manually-expirable groups, no article is ever marked as expirable unless you specifically expire it. To summarize, the main difference between total-expirable groups and the other two is that total-expirable groups actually allow all of Gnus' fancy scoring stuff (specifically adaptive scoring) to work right, but you can't expect read articles to stick around like you can in manually-expirable or auto-expirable groups. The main difference between manually and auto expirable groups is how articles get marked as expirable. For completeness, I'll also mention that if you really want to power-nuke a particular message right this second, then you can do that with 'B del'. This command tells the group backend to do whatever it takes to banish the offending message to never-never land *right now*. This really isn't the best way to handle deleting your mail, but it's there if you really really want/need it. The one other issue relevant to mail article deletion is what mark mail articles are given just after you look at them. Normally, this is 'R', or the "read" mark, but you might want to change that to better accomodate the expiration behavior you've chosen when considered in the context of the particular mail group in question. If you choose total-expire for a group, then the default of marking a read article with an 'R' means that it's scheduled for expiration. In groups where you normally delete most of the articles, this might be exactly what you want, but if it's a group where you normally want to keep all the articles, having to go back and re-mark each article as dormant just after you read it can be a pain. Accordingly, you can tell Gnus to change the default mark that an articles end up with just after you read them. To do that, just use something like this: (Need code here, but I forgot what the proper bit of magic was...) > What many Gnus users find, after using it a while for both news and > mail, is that the transport becomes more and more irrelevant. What > becomes important is the size of the receiving audience. > > Many people subscribe to several mailing lists. These are > transported via SMTP, and are therefore mail. Some people have local > news groups which have only a handful of readers. These are > transported via NNTP, and are therefore news. > > The important distinction turns out to be not the transport > mechanism, but whether the messages are "personal" or "public". Many > users then subtly alter the behavior of Gnus according to these two > categories. > > Some users never get comfortable using the Gnus (ahem) paradigm and > wish that Gnus should grow up and be a male, er, mail reader. It is > possible to whip Gnus into a more mailreaderly being, but, as said > before, it's not easy. People who prefer proper mail readers should > try VM instead, which is an excellent, and proper, mail reader. > > I don't mean to scare anybody off, but I want to make it clear that > you may be required to learn a new way of thinking about messages. > After you've been subjected to The Gnus Way, you will come to love it. > I can guarantee it. (At least the guy who sold me the Emacs Subliminal > Brain-Washing Functions that I've put into Gnus did guarantee it. You > Will Be Assimilated. You Love Gnus. You Love The Gnus Mail Way. You > Do.) > > > -- > (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) > larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen > > -- Rob Browning <rlb@cs.utexas.edu> PGP=E80E0D04F521A094 532B97F5D64E3930 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 152+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1999-07-28 7:36 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 152+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1999-06-22 0:36 some mail annoyances Per Bothner 1999-06-22 2:04 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-22 8:20 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-22 8:23 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-22 12:00 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-22 22:34 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-23 7:39 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 14:25 ` Wes Hardaker 1999-06-22 12:53 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-22 17:48 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Per Bothner 1999-06-22 18:20 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-23 7:00 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-23 7:44 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 7:50 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 8:18 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-22 18:58 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-22 19:29 ` Sam Falkner 1999-06-22 19:33 ` Finding a given in an nnml group (was: Re: some mail annoyances [renumbering]) Laura Conrad 1999-06-22 19:48 ` Jack Twilley 1999-06-22 19:48 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 6:54 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 15:36 ` Laura Conrad 1999-06-23 17:46 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-24 9:10 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 20:39 ` Justin Sheehy 1999-06-22 21:13 ` some mail annoyances [renumbering] Tony Lam 1999-06-23 7:05 ` Steinar Bang 1999-06-23 19:33 ` David Hedbor 1999-06-25 23:25 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-26 0:27 ` David Hedbor 1999-06-28 15:45 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-23 6:45 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 18:34 ` Being forced to deal with message numbers and frustrated Tony Lam 1999-06-23 19:56 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-23 22:13 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 0:20 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-24 6:44 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 9:19 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 9:21 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 14:58 ` Peter von der Ahé - at home 1999-06-24 15:37 ` Norbert Koch 1999-06-24 17:58 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-25 19:47 ` David Hedbor 1999-06-25 20:56 ` Matt Pharr 1999-06-28 1:53 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 15:48 ` Lee Willis 1999-06-24 18:01 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 8:42 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-24 17:05 ` Sam Falkner 1999-06-24 23:06 ` Sam Falkner 1999-06-24 9:17 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 9:14 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 19:00 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-24 20:41 ` David S. Goldberg 1999-06-24 21:07 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-24 21:38 ` Tony Lam 1999-06-25 6:14 ` Soeren Laursen 1999-07-04 1:30 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-06-22 18:33 ` some mail annoyances [deleting mail] Per Bothner 1999-06-22 18:33 ` Jack Twilley 1999-06-22 18:54 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-22 19:15 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 7:10 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-23 7:32 ` Yair Friedman 1999-06-23 7:46 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 12:13 ` Randal L. Schwartz 1999-06-22 19:18 ` Nathan Williams 1999-06-23 7:51 ` Per Bothner 1999-06-23 6:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 7:23 ` Yair Friedman 1999-07-04 1:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-06-22 19:37 ` some mail annoyances David S. Goldberg 1999-06-23 0:48 ` Dmitry Yaitskov 1999-06-23 7:42 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-23 7:49 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 14:20 ` Dmitry Yaitskov 1999-06-23 19:15 ` some mail annoyances [article number overflow] Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-23 21:02 ` Colin Rafferty 1999-06-23 21:09 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-22 12:58 ` some mail annoyances David S. Goldberg 1999-06-22 14:33 ` Steinar Bang 1999-06-22 16:43 ` Vin Shelton 1999-06-23 6:42 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-23 6:47 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-06-23 14:24 ` Wes Hardaker 1999-06-24 21:19 ` Per Bothner 1999-06-25 3:18 ` Christian Nybø 1999-06-25 20:34 ` Ken McGlothlen 1999-06-25 23:51 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-26 0:07 ` Ken McGlothlen 1999-06-26 0:19 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-26 2:05 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-26 2:28 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-26 2:46 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-27 13:32 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-27 21:15 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-28 23:43 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-27 22:30 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-28 2:49 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-28 8:09 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-28 15:24 ` Harry Putnam 1999-06-28 15:50 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-26 9:32 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-06-27 13:34 ` Stainless Steel Rat 1999-06-28 13:58 ` Kim-Minh Kaplan 1999-06-26 13:16 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-28 15:37 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-28 20:43 ` Wes Hardaker 1999-06-28 20:57 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-25 5:10 ` Russ Allbery 1999-06-25 13:21 ` Per Abrahamsen 1999-06-25 13:25 ` Didier Verna 1999-06-25 13:39 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-25 13:43 ` Karl Kleinpaste 1999-06-25 13:52 ` customizing (was Re: some mail annoyances) Paul Stevenson 1999-07-04 2:19 ` some mail annoyances Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 2:44 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 3:19 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 6:15 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 6:51 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 13:15 ` Hrvoje Niksic 1999-07-04 17:00 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-04 19:01 ` Harry Putnam 1999-07-04 19:31 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-04 6:37 ` Hans de Graaff 1999-07-05 3:11 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-04 16:58 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-05 3:13 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-05 9:28 ` Kai.Grossjohann 1999-07-06 3:58 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-05 7:45 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-07-06 4:02 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-06 6:47 ` Jaap-Henk Hoepman 1999-07-06 15:54 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-05 16:22 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-07-05 18:32 ` François Pinard 1999-07-07 11:30 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-07-07 14:20 ` François Pinard 1999-07-07 14:22 ` Lee Willis 1999-07-12 11:40 ` Robert Bihlmeyer 1999-07-06 3:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-13 5:22 ` Rob Browning 1999-07-13 11:29 ` Kai Großjohann 1999-07-04 18:18 ` lconrad 1999-07-05 3:17 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-07 0:34 ` Peter von der Ahé 1999-07-07 2:46 ` lconrad 1999-07-09 16:59 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-09 18:39 ` Peter von der Ahé 1999-07-09 19:15 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen 1999-07-28 7:36 ` Rob Browning
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