*Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

*Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Benjamin Rutt]

For the following, I am talking using a very recent Oort (just cvs
updated 12 hours ago).

I want to add a new server parameter to nnfolder.  (AFAIK in order to
define a new server parameter you are supposed to simply define the
variable with a defvoo in the backend .el file and you're all set?)
Anyway, I do the following:

1) (defvoo nnfolder-foo nil "foo is my variable") ;;in nnfolder.el

2) rm nnfolder.elc

3) restart emacs, M-x gnus

4) '^' to enter the server buffer, where I see (as normal):

     {nnfolder:archive} (opened)
     {nntp:news.gnus.org} (opened)
     {nndraft:} (opened)
     {nnml:} (opened)
     {nntp:News.CIS.DFN.DE} (opened)

5) 'C' to close my nnfolder:archive server (since I have read that
it's best to 'e' (edit, see next step) servers when they're closed)

6) 'e' to edit the nnfolder:archive server

7) In my editing session (BTW, I find it odd that it shows me the
*Group* buffer in the other split-window when I am editing the Server
Buffer, but that's beside the point here), I add the line
(nnfolder-foo "bar") and C-c C-c to exit edits.

8) At this point I notice two lines in the Server buffer that say
nnfolder:archive:  

     {nnfolder:archive} (closed)         <---I can 'e' this one
     {nntp:news.gnus.org} (opened)
     {nndraft:} (opened)
     {nnfolder:archive} (closed)         <---I can't 'e' this one
     {nnml:} (opened)
     {nntp:News.CIS.DFN.DE} (opened)

I can only re-edit one of these, as noted above .  When I re-edit the
one I can re-edit, I see the (nnfolder-foo "bar") sitting there as it
should.  But the extra server is puzzling.  I hit 'q' to quit gnus.

9) When I M-x gnus again, I hit '^' and notice the following in the
server buffer:

     {nnfolder:archive} (opened)
     {nntp:news.gnus.org} (opened)
     {nnfolder:archive+nnfolder+archive:saved-articles} (opened) (?)
     {nndraft:} (opened)
     {nnfolder:archive+nnfolder+archive:sent-news} (opened)      (?)
     {nnfolder:archive+nnfolder+archive:sent-mail} (opened)      (?)
     {nnfolder:archive+nnfolder+archive:sent-mail-old} (opened)  (?)
     {nnml:} (opened)
     {nntp:News.CIS.DFN.DE} (opened)

So, what happened?  All the lines I marked with a (?) look odd.  FYI,
in my nnfolder:archive server, I have 4 groups, "saved-articles",
"sent-news", "sent-mail", and "sent-mail-old".  Somehow these became
servers with funny names?  Anyone know what is going on here?  Did I
do anything wrong?

BTW, When I re-edit the top group in the list, and eliminate my new
nnfolder-foo variable and restart gnus, the server buffer is back to
normal.
-- 
Benjamin

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Benjamin Rutt <brutt+news@bloomington.in.us> writes:

> So, what happened?  All the lines I marked with a (?) look odd.  FYI,
> in my nnfolder:archive server, I have 4 groups, "saved-articles",
> "sent-news", "sent-mail", and "sent-mail-old".  Somehow these became
> servers with funny names?

Have a peek at the select method of these groups.  It probably has the
entire old method stuffed in there, while you want it to have just the
string "archive".

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Benjamin Rutt]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Have a peek at the select method of these groups.  It probably has the
> entire old method stuffed in there, while you want it to have just the
> string "archive".

Hmm, I think it does only contain the string "archive", if I wrote the
following test correctly.  I added the remove-dupes call since it
would have been redundant to post 4 copies of the same select method.

(gnus-remove-duplicates
 (mapcar 'gnus-find-method-for-group
	 '("nnfolder+archive:saved-articles"
	   "nnfolder+archive:sent-mail-old"
	   "nnfolder+archive:sent-mail"
	   "nnfolder+archive:sent-news")))

==>

((nnfolder "archive"
	   (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive")
	   (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
	   (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil)
	   (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))

-- 
Benjamin

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Kai Großjohann]

Benjamin Rutt <brutt+news@bloomington.in.us> writes:

> ((nnfolder "archive"
> 	   (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive")
> 	   (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
> 	   (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil)
> 	   (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))

This is clearly not the string "archive".  But I don't know whether it
comes from gnus-find-method-for-group.

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Benjamin Rutt <brutt+news@bloomington.in.us> writes:

> Hmm, I think it does only contain the string "archive", if I wrote the
> following test correctly. 

The way to check is to say `G e' on the group in question.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Benjamin Rutt]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> The way to check is to say `G e' on the group in question.

That produces the exact same results as my calling
gnus-find-method-for-group.  It simply stuck

(nnfolder "archive"
	   (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive")
	   (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
	   (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil)
	   (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))

in an editing buffer.
-- 
Benjamin

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Benjamin Rutt]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> But I don't know whether it comes from gnus-find-method-for-group.

Yes, it does, see the test it came from.  The reason I used
gnus-find-method-for-group instead of gnus-group-method was due to the
docstring for gnus-group-method, which warns against its own use and
refers to the proper method to call:

(defun gnus-group-method (group)
  "Return the server or method used for selecting GROUP.
You should probably use `gnus-find-method-for-group' instead."
[...]

If I call (gnus-group-method "nnfolder+archive:sent-mail"), it returns
just "archive".

-- 
Benjamin

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Benjamin Rutt <brutt+news@bloomington.in.us> writes:

>> The way to check is to say `G e' on the group in question.
>
> That produces the exact same results as my calling
> gnus-find-method-for-group.  It simply stuck
>
> (nnfolder "archive"
> 	   (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive")
> 	   (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
> 	   (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil)
> 	   (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t))

Yes, and that's not what you want the method to look like.  It should
look like:

"archive"

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Benjamin Rutt]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Yes, and that's not what you want the method to look like.  It should
> look like:
>
> "archive"

Hmm.  IIRC the nnfolder:archive server was initially created many
months ago when I did a

(setq gnus-message-archive-group
      '((if (message-news-p)
	    "sent-news"
	  "sent-mail"))) 

in my ~/.gnus.  Maybe I messed it up somehow when I was trying to add
my server parameters.  I'll G e it from *Group* and set it to just
"archive" and try again.
-- 
Benjamin

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Benjamin Rutt]

Benjamin Rutt <brutt+news@bloomington.in.us> writes:

> I'll G e it from *Group* and set it to just "archive" and try again.

Yes, that did the trick.  Why the select method got all fubar in the
first place remains a mystery.

Thanks for the help, Lars and Kai, and sorry for my misunderstanding
of what the select method should look like.  To defend myself, I think
the following line in gnus info threw me, when I was trying to learn
what he meant by "Have a peek at the select method of these groups":

,----[ from (Info-goto-node "(gnus)Select Methods") ]
| a select method is a list where the first element says what backend to
| use (e.g. `nntp', `nnspool', `nnml') and the second element is the
| "server name".  There may be additional elements in the select method,
| where the value may have special meaning for the backend in question.
`----

So, I figured that when lars asked me to check on the select method
for the groups, he was telling me to sure the second element of the
list making up the select method is the string "archive", which it
was.  I couldn't grok the idea that a select method was not a list,
since it said clearly that it is a list in the documentation above.
So, don't we have a doc bug in the above info node?  I'm sorry that I
don't know enough about a select method yet to know how to correct it,
though.  I'm thinking it could be revised to say something like "a
select method is either the server name as a string or a list where
the first element..."

If the above is a bug, then surely the following is a bug also,

,----[ from (Info-goto-node "(gnus)Terminology") ]
| "select method"
|      A structure that specifies the backend, the server and the virtual
|      server settings.
`----

unless by "structure" it is obvious to the reader that it can either
be a string or a list.

-- 
Benjamin

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Kai Großjohann]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Yes, and that's not what you want the method to look like.  It should
> look like:
>
> "archive"

I think it should be "nnfolder:archive", not just "archive"?

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Kai Großjohann]

Benjamin Rutt <brutt+news@bloomington.in.us> writes:

> Thanks for the help, Lars and Kai, and sorry for my misunderstanding
> of what the select method should look like.

It was fairly recently discovered that it is better to use strings
than lists.  I think.

> To defend myself, I think the following line in gnus info threw me,
> when I was trying to learn what he meant by "Have a peek at the
> select method of these groups":
>
> ,----[ from (Info-goto-node "(gnus)Select Methods") ]
> | a select method is a list where the first element says what backend to
> | use (e.g. `nntp', `nnspool', `nnml') and the second element is the
> | "server name".  There may be additional elements in the select method,
> | where the value may have special meaning for the backend in question.
> `----
>
> So, I figured that when lars asked me to check on the select method
> for the groups, he was telling me to sure the second element of the
> list making up the select method is the string "archive", which it
> was.  I couldn't grok the idea that a select method was not a list,
> since it said clearly that it is a list in the documentation above.
> So, don't we have a doc bug in the above info node?  I'm sorry that I
> don't know enough about a select method yet to know how to correct it,
> though.  I'm thinking it could be revised to say something like "a
> select method is either the server name as a string or a list where
> the first element..."

There is a select method and a server.  Often, they are used
interchangeably.  I think a server can be either a list (like a select
method) or a server name (not sure whether that should be just
"archive" or just "nnfolder:archive" in your case).

The terminology in the Gnus documentation is confusing.  Please help
to clean it up by asking about anything that you find confusing.

> If the above is a bug, then surely the following is a bug also,
>
> ,----[ from (Info-goto-node "(gnus)Terminology") ]
> | "select method"
> |      A structure that specifies the backend, the server and the virtual
> |      server settings.
> `----
>
> unless by "structure" it is obvious to the reader that it can either
> be a string or a list.

Err...  Since I'm not really sure what the terminology should be, I
better not comment on this, I think.

Maybe it turns out that a "server" can be a string of a list, where
the list is the "select method".  Maybe not.

Lars?

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> I think it should be "nnfolder:archive", not just "archive"?

Just "archive".  It's the name of the server; not a group spec thing. 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:

> Maybe it turns out that a "server" can be a string of a list, where
> the list is the "select method".  Maybe not.

A server is specified by a select method.  That is, a server is the
name of a select method.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Paul Jarc]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>> I think it should be "nnfolder:archive", not just "archive"?
> 
> Just "archive".  It's the name of the server; not a group spec thing. 

But servers belonging to different backends can have the same name;
the name alone is not unique.  The *Server* buffer disambiguates them
in the style Kai used.


paul

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> But servers belonging to different backends can have the same name;
> the name alone is not unique.

No, they can't, and yes they are.  Or, to put it another way -- yes,
they can, and no, they aren't.¹

> The *Server* buffer disambiguates them in the style Kai used.

The server buffer doesn't display the name of the server at all.  :-)

It all depends on what the definition of "server" is.  (Or perhaps the
definition of "definition" is.)  When Gnus says "... server ...", it's
talking about the designator for a select method.  However, select
methods also contains something that's called a "server" (that is, the
address of an external instance to contact, in nntp's case).  That has
nothing to do with anything.  The server is the designator of the
select method.

If you want the server name to be displayed in the server buffer, you
have to use the %n spec.

¹) I've just written a WAV sound file editor mode for Emacs.  It must
be affecting my mind in strange ways.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Paul Jarc]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>> But servers belonging to different backends can have the same name;
>> the name alone is not unique.
> 
> No, they can't, and yes they are.  Or, to put it another way -- yes,
> they can, and no, they aren't.¹

I have these select methods:
(setq gnus-select-method
      `(nnmaildir "" (directory prj:nnmaildir)))
(setq gnus-secondary-select-methods
      '((nntp "" (nntp-address "news.cwru.edu."))))
The name (designation, whatever) "" is not sufficient to distinguish
between them.  "nnmaildir:" and "nntp:" do distinguish between them.

> When Gnus says "... server ...", it's talking about the designator
> for a select method.

Meaning the second element?  Or the first two?

> However, select methods also contains something that's called a
> "server" (that is, the address of an external instance to contact,
> in nntp's case).

Meaning the nntp-address (or, e.g., nnml-directory) parameter?


paul

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

>> When Gnus says "... server ...", it's talking about the designator
>> for a select method.
>
> Meaning the second element?  Or the first two?

Neither.  The server name is outside the select method.  The only
place you can actually see the server name is in `gnus-server-alist'.

(The name of the server is most often the same as the address element
in the select method, but that's in no way guaranteed.)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Paul Jarc]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>>> When Gnus says "... server ...", it's talking about the designator
>>> for a select method.
>>
>> Meaning the second element?  Or the first two?
> 
> Neither.  The server name is outside the select method.  The only
> place you can actually see the server name is in `gnus-server-alist'.

So since primary and secondary servers aren't listed there, they don't
have names?

> (The name of the server is most often the same as the address element
> in the select method, but that's in no way guaranteed.)

So when I [a]dd a new server in the *Server* buffer, and Gnus asks me
for the "name", that also becomes the second element of the select
method.  Then I can [e]dit the server and change the second element,
but the name remain the same.  Is that right?


paul

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> So since primary and secondary servers aren't listed there, they don't
> have names?

The primary select method is named "native".  The secondary ones...
Uhm...  

> So when I [a]dd a new server in the *Server* buffer, and Gnus asks me
> for the "name", that also becomes the second element of the select
> method.  Then I can [e]dit the server and change the second element,
> but the name remain the same.  Is that right?

Yup.  Well, that's how it's supposed to be; yes.  I haven't tried it.  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Paul Jarc]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>> So since primary and secondary servers aren't listed there, they don't
>> have names?
> 
> The primary select method is named "native".  The secondary ones...
> Uhm...  

After adding %n to my gnus-server-line-format, I see "nnmaildir:" and
"nnml:" for the server names.  Is this a different kind of "name", or
is it a bug that "nnmaildir:" isn't "native"?

And then the address is just the second element of the select method,
right?


paul

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:

> After adding %n to my gnus-server-line-format, I see "nnmaildir:" and
> "nnml:" for the server names.  Is this a different kind of "name", or
> is it a bug that "nnmaildir:" isn't "native"?

It's a bug.

> And then the address is just the second element of the select method,
> right?

Yes.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Paul Jarc]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
> prj@po.cwru.edu (Paul Jarc) writes:
>> After adding %n to my gnus-server-line-format, I see "nnmaildir:" and
>> "nnml:" for the server names.  Is this a different kind of "name", or
>> is it a bug that "nnmaildir:" isn't "native"?
> 
> It's a bug.

Well, gnus-server-to-method seems to be able to handle both.  So it
might be said that a select method can have more than one name,
mightn't it?


paul

Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters

[Kai Großjohann]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE (Kai Großjohann) writes:
>
>> I think it should be "nnfolder:archive", not just "archive"?
>
> Just "archive".  It's the name of the server; not a group spec thing. 

This is all terribly confusing.  I think something should be done
about this confusion.  Probably, it's best to make things more
consistent.

Some time ago, there was a discussion about putting a server name in
gnus-secondary-select-methods, rather than the select method.  The
idea was that it is then possible to change the server definition
(parameters) without having to change all the groups.  Of course,
these days, it's not necessary anymore since .newsrc.eld stores
"backend:name" style thingies together with a group, rather than just
the whole select method.

But still, if some pieces of Gnus require me to say "mail" to name a
server, and others require me to say "nnml:mail", then I can be pretty
sure that the former pieces will get pretty confused if I have both
"nnml:mail" and "nnimap:mail".

Personally, I've got "nnml:" and "nnimap:".  Does that mean if I want
one of them to be secondary, I should do (add-to-list
'gnus-secondary-select-methods "")?  And if I do so, which one is then
secondary?  Both?

IMVHO, Gnus should use just two ways to specify servers and/or select
methods: the form thingy like (nnml "foo") and the string thingy
"nnml:foo".  What do you think?

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature