using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Matt McClure]

Gnus has traditionally behaved very badly when procmail split directly
into mail groups.  Does this same restriction exist with nnimap?

-- 
Matt
http://www.faradic.net/~mmcclure/

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[David S. Goldberg]

I have procmail call deliver (we have a cyrus server) for certain
groups.  nnimap has had no trouble with that at all.
-- 
Dave Goldberg
Post: The Mitre Corporation\MS B325\202 Burlington Rd.\Bedford, MA 01730
Phone: 781-271-3887
Email: dsg@mitre.org

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Didier Verna]

dsg@mitre.org (David S. Goldberg) wrote:

> I have procmail call deliver (we have a cyrus server) for certain
> groups.  nnimap has had no trouble with that at all.

        I think the difference is that when procmail delivers mail in a unix
box format or not. For example, at my previous site, I had procmail called
directly by the mailer. I could then have several mailboxes in unix format,
each mail starting with "From ...".

        Now, I get my mail with pop. I tried to use fetchmail to pop my mails
and procmail them as before, but the mails delivered by pop aren't in unix
format anymore. Then, gnus bangs out on the split folders because it can't
find the "From ..." line anymore.

        I haven't found a solution to this problem (appart from giving up
procmail).

-- 
    /     /   _   _       Didier Verna        http://www.inf.enst.fr/~verna/
 - / / - / / /_/ /        EPITA / LRDE            mailto:didier@epita.fr
/_/ / /_/ / /__ /      14-16 rue Voltaire       Tel.   +33 (1) 44 08 01 77
                   94276 Kremlin-Bicêtre cedex  Fax.   +33 (1) 44 08 01 99

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Alan Shutko]

Didier Verna <didier@epita.fr> writes:

> Now, I get my mail with pop. I tried to use fetchmail to pop my mails
> and procmail them as before, but the mails delivered by pop aren't in unix
> format anymore. Then, gnus bangs out on the split folders because it can't
> find the "From ..." line anymore.

Huh?  How are you delivering them with POP?  The way I do it is
fetchmail feeds it into the local sendmail, which implicitly calls
procmail, which splits.  All is well.

-- 
Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> - In a variety of flavors!
A dog is a dog, a bird is a bird, a cat is a person.

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Didier Verna]

Alan Shutko <ats@acm.org> wrote:

> Huh?  How are you delivering them with POP?  The way I do it is
> fetchmail feeds it into the local sendmail, which implicitly calls
> procmail, which splits.  All is well.

        Hmm, since I'm the only user on my machine, I don't feed to the local
sendmail. What I tried was to periodically call fetchmail like this:

poll pop.epita.fr proto POP3 user didier pass "XXX" mda "/usr/bin/procmail .procmailrc"

        I didin't have the idea of feeding a local sendmail. Geeze, I have to
learn how an MTA works now :-/

-- 
    /     /   _   _       Didier Verna        http://www.inf.enst.fr/~verna/
 - / / - / / /_/ /        EPITA / LRDE            mailto:didier@epita.fr
/_/ / /_/ / /__ /      14-16 rue Voltaire       Tel.   +33 (1) 44 08 01 77
                   94276 Kremlin-Bicêtre cedex  Fax.   +33 (1) 44 08 01 99

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[David S. Goldberg]

>         I didin't have the idea of feeding a local sendmail. Geeze,
> I have to learn how an MTA works now :-/
I don't think so.  If I remember correctly, one of the support
programs that comes with procmail (formail, I think) can turn your
message back into mbox format.  Run it something like this:

:0 fw
|formail [whatever the right options are here, sorry, the man page is
          on another machine]

as your first, or almost first, procmail rule and then all your
"splitting" stuff can go after that.
-- 
Dave Goldberg
Post: The Mitre Corporation\MS B325\202 Burlington Rd.\Bedford, MA 01730
Phone: 781-271-3887
Email: dsg@mitre.org

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Jody M. Klymak]

Hello Matt,

I've been using procmail with (p)gnus and nnimap for months now
without any problems.  I was unaware that there should be a problem.
Indeed, it would be pretty bad if gnus didn't like procmail/IMAP since
all the oher IMAP clients I've tried don't seem to mind procmail.  

Cheers,  Jody
 
>>>>> "MM" == Matt McClure <matthew.mcclure.es.99@aya.yale.edu> writes:

    MM> Gnus has traditionally behaved very badly when procmail split
    MM> directly into mail groups.  Does this same restriction exist
    MM> with nnimap?

    MM> -- Matt http://www.faradic.net/~mmcclure/

-- 
Jody Klymak                         APL/School of Oceanography,
Doctoral Candidate                  University of Washington
mailto:jklymak@apl.washington.edu   (206)-685-9080
http://www.ocean.washington.edu/people/grads/jklymak/

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Toby Speight]

Matt> Matt McClure <URL:mailto:matthew.mcclure.es.99@aya.yale.edu>

0> In <URL:news:vl3iu286r8b.fsf@amber2.ccur.com>, Matt wrote:

Matt> Gnus has traditionally behaved very badly when procmail split
Matt> directly into mail groups.  Does this same restriction exist
Matt> with nnimap?

No - nnimap is a server-based system.  Gnus knows that the server will
assign numbers to the articles, and doesn't expect to do it itself.
Similarly, procmail knows the server will do all the work, and doesn't
do anything itself, other than tell the server into which group each
article goes.

The problems with splitting into file-based groups arise because both
Gnus and procmail think they own the housekeeping tasks, and so stand
on each other's feet.  With IMAP, they both know they're not in
charge, and they ask the server for advice.

I'm using an IMAP server, but not with procmail.  I use its own
splitting system[1], and the only problem I see is very minor -
Gnus's estimate of how many articles are in my INBOX is often a long
way out, because splitting introduces holes in the numbering.

[1] I intend to move to nnml-split-fancy when I can, so I don't have
    to log in on the server to update my rules - and for the improved
    functionality.

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Jody M. Klymak]

Hi Toby,

>>>>> "TS" == Toby Speight <Toby.Speight@streapadair.freeserve.co.uk> writes:

    TS> [1] I intend to move to nnml-split-fancy when I can, so I
    TS> don't have to log in on the server to update my rules - and
    TS> for the improved functionality.

Ah, but the point of keeping your messages on the server in the first
place is so that you aren't dependant on the MUA to keep your mail in
order.  If you go on vacation and all you have is Pine or mailx or
whatever you get stuck with when you aren't at your home machine, your
mail won't get sorted.  

Cheers,  Jody

-- 
Jody Klymak                         APL/School of Oceanography,
Doctoral Candidate                  University of Washington
mailto:jklymak@apl.washington.edu   (206)-685-9080
http://www.ocean.washington.edu/people/grads/jklymak/

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Toby Speight]

Toby> Toby Speight
Toby> <URL:mailto:Toby.Speight@streapadair.freeserve.co.uk>
JMK> Jody M. Klymak <URL:mailto:jklymak@apl.washington.edu>

0> In article <uaenk805j.fsf@lanber.cam.citrix.com>, Toby wrote:

Toby> [1] I intend to move to nnml-split-fancy when I can, so I don't
Toby>     have to log in on the server to update my rules - and for
Toby>     the improved functionality.


0> In article <zovkyope.fsf@apl.washington.edu>, JMK wrote:

JMK> Ah, but the point of keeping your messages on the server in the
JMK> first place is so that you aren't dependant on the MUA to keep
JMK> your mail in order.  If you go on vacation and all you have is
JMK> Pine or mailx or whatever you get stuck with when you aren't at
JMK> your home machine, your mail won't get sorted.

True.  Perhaps I should do some crude sorting on the server, and use
Gnus to split the resulting half-dozen groups?  OTOH, I don't often
travel without my Gnus (I burn a CD of my $HOME if necessary), so it's
not a big issue here.

You say that the point of keeping your messages on the server is so
that you are independent of the MUA.  That's true, but for me the main
advantage of IMAP is that backups are more frequent on that server.
(And it's often faster than nnml on a SMB-mounted filesystem - maybe
that's just a result of different server hardware).

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Jody M. Klymak]

Hi Toby,

>>>>> "TS" == Toby Speight <Toby.Speight@streapadair.freeserve.co.uk> writes:

    TS> You say that the point of keeping your messages on the server
    TS> is so that you are independent of the MUA.  That's true, but
    TS> for me the main advantage of IMAP is that backups are more
    TS> frequent on that server.  (And it's often faster than nnml on
    TS> a SMB-mounted filesystem - maybe that's just a result of
    TS> different server hardware).

I use nnimap because I'm on an NT machine and I don't want to set up a
mail server on this machine.  Though I'm guessing its not too hard,
its a service my sysadmins seem prefectly capable of handling.  It
also means I have a few meg of extra free space on my home machine.
It also means that if I change machines (which happens pretty often) I
don't have the chore of moving my mail.  And as I say, when I'm on
vacation I can always use Pine or netscape or something else to check
all my newsgroups.  

Though I will admit that I've forgotten to subscribe to goups I was
splitting into using procmail, and *that* was a nuisance, especially
when they filled up pretty good on the server!

Cheers,  Jody

-- 
Jody Klymak                         APL/School of Oceanography,
Doctoral Candidate                  University of Washington
mailto:jklymak@apl.washington.edu   (206)-685-9080
http://www.ocean.washington.edu/people/grads/jklymak/

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Matt McClure]

On Thu Dec 09 1999, 13:00, Toby Speight
<Toby.Speight@streapadair.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Matt> Matt McClure <URL:mailto:matthew.mcclure.es.99@aya.yale.edu>
> 
> 0> In <URL:news:vl3iu286r8b.fsf@amber2.ccur.com>, Matt wrote:
> 
> Matt> Gnus has traditionally behaved very badly when procmail split
> Matt> directly into mail groups.  Does this same restriction exist
> Matt> with nnimap?
> 
> No - nnimap is a server-based system.  Gnus knows that the server will
> assign numbers to the articles, and doesn't expect to do it itself.
> Similarly, procmail knows the server will do all the work, and doesn't
> do anything itself, other than tell the server into which group each
> article goes.

But procmail doesn't use the IMAP server.  It doesn't even need an IMAP
server to work.

I suspect that the non-server-based Gnus backends simply expect that
they are the ones that put messages into groups.  Nnimap, on the other
hand, queries the IMAP server, which looks in the folder and is smart
enough to do the right thing when something else has modified the file.
Is that right?

-- 
Matt
http://www.faradic.net/~mmcclure/

Re: using procmail to split directly into nnimap groups

[Toby Speight]

Matt> Matt McClure <URL:mailto:matthew.mcclure.es.99@aya.yale.edu>

0> In <URL:news:vl31z8whr5w.fsf@amber2.ccur.com>, Matt wrote:

Matt> But procmail doesn't use the IMAP server.  It doesn't even need
Matt> an IMAP server to work.

I told you I don't use procmail ;-)


Matt> I suspect that the non-server-based Gnus backends simply expect
Matt> that they are the ones that put messages into groups.

That's true.

Matt> Nnimap, on the other hand, queries the IMAP server, which looks
Matt> in the folder and is smart enough to do the right thing when
Matt> something else has modified the file.  Is that right?

Probably.  I guess your IMAP server looks in the filesystem[1]
every time, rather than assuming its model of the world is up to
date.  It's possible to imagine a Gnus mail-type backend that does
this, but the current ones don't.

Of course, all this is different on IMAP servers that don't use a
filesystem in the same way (e.g. servers with a database backend - I
assume these exist?).  Either way, of course, Gnus itself doesn't
directly enter articles with IMAP - it's done by the server.

[1] I'm counting a check of file times as "looking in the filesystem"
    here.