From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/19764 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Kleinpaste Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.general Subject: Re: metamail Date: 08 Dec 1998 13:38:56 -0500 Sender: owner-ding@hpc.uh.edu Message-ID: References: <76soeq4mar.fsf@ppllc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: coloc-standby.netfonds.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1035158054 13264 80.91.224.250 (20 Oct 2002 23:54:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:54:14 +0000 (UTC) Return-Path: Original-Received: from gizmo.hpc.uh.edu (gizmo.hpc.uh.edu [129.7.102.31]) by sclp3.sclp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20497 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:41:06 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (lists@sina.hpc.uh.edu [129.7.3.5]) by gizmo.hpc.uh.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16922; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:39:54 -0600 Original-Received: by sina.hpc.uh.edu (TLB v0.09a (1.20 tibbs 1996/10/09 22:03:07)); Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:40:01 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: from sclp3.sclp.com (root@sclp3.sclp.com [204.252.123.139]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28310 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:39:50 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: from beaver.jprc.com (BEAVER.JPRC.COM [207.86.147.217]) by sclp3.sclp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20450 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:39:31 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: (from karl@localhost) by beaver.jprc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03252; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:38:57 -0500 Original-To: ding@gnus.org X-Face: "5(T0tZd{6}pd~YzBG8O/*EW,.]6]@`m^e;fv65W^Y&=d"M\1H}>T~4_.kcDD.O~y3k)a6h R;Nmi>9|>Nm${2IpM0^RcUEa\jcq?KOP)C&~x51l~zCHTulL^_T|u0I^kB'z@]{`2YjQu In-Reply-To: François Pinard's message of "08 Dec 1998 12:17:15 -0500" User-Agent: Gnus/5.070065 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.65) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald) Precedence: list X-Majordomo: 1.94.jlt7 Original-Lines: 22 Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.general:19764 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general:19764 I'm well aware of where metamail originated, and in fact I experimented with the very first public release he made of it (with related tools) in ¿1992?. It is still the case that it's quite ugly in some ways, and is incomplete, as we've found when looking for MIME comparison points against Gnus. Borenstein published a fair amount of commentary about having spent N years working with things like CMU's Andrew Message System (a seriously spiffy and capable system which supported advanced concepts like embedded animation, as far back as the mid-1980s; I recall watching him demo this kind of thing at the January 1988 Usenix Conf.) and yet, much later, found himself back-porting MIME-related hooks into ancient crufty mail handlers like UCB Mail because, as he related, composition of such messages is Hard -- that one can spend a great deal of time putting together even a short message when one is trying to get the right presentation of graphic, animation, and text, and that there is a "diminishing returns" factor involved, which limited the AMS' ability to achieve penetration and acceptance. I consider the deficiencies of metamail in particular to be an example of the realization that effective rendering is apparently equally as Hard as composition.