'.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

'.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Florian Weimer]

What does it mean?

I think I've read about it here, but I can't find the message, and it
doesn't seem to be documented in the manual.

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Henrik Enberg]

Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> wrote:
> What does it mean?
>
> I think I've read about it here, but I can't find the message, and it
> doesn't seem to be documented in the manual.

It means that you haven't seen those articles before.

Info > Gnus > Summary Buffer > Marking Articles > Other Marks

Henrik
-- 
Could I have a drug overdose?

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Karl Kleinpaste]

Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> wrote:
>> I think I've read about it here, but I can't find the message, and it
>> doesn't seem to be documented in the manual.

Henrik Enberg <henrik@enberg.org> writes:
> It means that you haven't seen those articles before.

It's extremely inconsistent.  Here is my summary buffer for ding, in
Oort as of this morning:

R   26-Aug > [   5: Florian Weimer         ] '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines
R   26-Aug `---> [  15: Henrik Enberg          ] 
    26-Aug   [  38: Kai Großjohann         ] Re: *Server* buffer problems when adding server parameters
    26-Aug   [  11: Raymond Scholz         ] Re: self contained nnfolder
    26-Aug > [  35: Rob Browning           ] Re: self-contained nnml
    26-Aug `---> [  28: Simon Josefsson        ] 

No `.' at all.  But I surely hadn't seen any of these articles before.

It seems like a nice feature, but I can't figure out what it's really
supposed to be telling me, if it doesn't show up when it obviously
ought to.

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Florian Weimer]

Karl Kleinpaste <karl@charcoal.com> writes:

> No `.' at all.  But I surely hadn't seen any of these articles before.

I think '.' appears only if you have entered the group at least once
after this new features was added to your copy of Gnus.

(Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Amos Gouaux]

>>>>> On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:57:12 +0200,
>>>>> Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> (fw) writes:

fw> (Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)

Why is that?  It's often used in info docs....

-- 
Amos

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Florian Weimer]

Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.ding@utdallas.edu> writes:

>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:57:12 +0200,
>>>>>> Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> (fw) writes:
>
> fw> (Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)
>
> Why is that?

In all relevant standards and most fonts, '`' is a grave accent, which
is not symmetric to '''.

> It's often used in info docs....

I know, and it looks awful.

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Russ Allbery]

Amos Gouaux <amos+lists.ding@utdallas.edu> writes:
>>>>>> Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> (fw) writes:

> fw> (Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)

> Why is that?  It's often used in info docs....

See <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/quotes.html>.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu)             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Simon Josefsson]

Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:

>> fw> (Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)
>
>> Why is that?  It's often used in info docs....
>
> See <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/quotes.html>.

Anyone know how to insert the U+2018 and U+2019 characters in emacs?
(Is the characters part of some 8859 or 2002 character set maybe?)

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Harry Putnam]

Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:
>
>>> fw> (Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)
>>
>>> Why is that?  It's often used in info docs....
>>
>> See <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/quotes.html>.
>
> Anyone know how to insert the U+2018 and U+2019 characters in emacs?
> (Is the characters part of some 8859 or 2002 character set maybe?)

Simon, 
Did anyone reply to you on that, privately or something.  If so can
you summarize for us?

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Simon Josefsson]

Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

>>>> fw> (Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)
>>>
>>>> Why is that?  It's often used in info docs....
>>>
>>> See <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/quotes.html>.
>>
>> Anyone know how to insert the U+2018 and U+2019 characters in emacs?
>> (Is the characters part of some 8859 or 2002 character set maybe?)
>
> Simon, 
> Did anyone reply to you on that, privately or something.  If so can
> you summarize for us?

Sorry, I didn't find out the answer.  I'm still curious though, using
U+2018 would perhaps make everyone happy.  (Except the ASCII-lovers.)

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Kai Großjohann]

Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

> Sorry, I didn't find out the answer.  I'm still curious though, using
> U+2018 would perhaps make everyone happy.  (Except the ASCII-lovers.)

There is a file quail/latin-ltx.el in Emacs 21, maybe that helps.  I'm
not sure if it includes any quote characters, though.

I seem to recall that oc-unicode includes a way to insert a Unicode
character by typing in its code number.

Maybe the C-x 8 keymap could be extended for inserting these
characters in a convenient way?

There is already C-x 8 ' SPC, C-x 8 ' ' and C-x 8 ` SPC.  So C-x 8 ` `
is still free.

C-x 8 ' ' produces:   ´
C-x 8 ' SPC produces: '

I wonder if C-x 8 ' ' is one of the desired characters?

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Nuutti Kotivuori]

Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes:
> 
>>> fw> (Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)
>>
>>> Why is that?  It's often used in info docs....
>>
>> See <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/quotes.html>.
> 
> Anyone know how to insert the U+2018 and U+2019 characters in emacs?

Assuming MULE-UCS - insert-ucs-character. #x2018 works in XEmacs,
?\x2018 in Emacs, I believe - the function takes a simple number from
the minibuffer as input. However, the documentation is in MULE-UCS
package, you can refer to it there.

> (Is the characters part of some 8859 or 2002 character set maybe?)

Character set       ‘   ’
--------------------------
Macintosh Roman    212 213
Macintosh Cyrillic 212 213
ISO 8859-7:1987    161 162

If you want to get the ISO 8859-7 character, you can say:

(make-char 'greek-iso8859-7 161)
(make-char 'greek-iso8859-7 162)

However, in my fonts atleast, the quotation marks don't look so proper
- but atleast they are defined to be the right character.

-- Naked

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Simon Josefsson]

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Nuutti Kotivuori <nuutti.kotivuori@smarttrust.com> writes:

>> Anyone know how to insert the U+2018 and U+2019 characters in emacs?
>
> Assuming MULE-UCS - insert-ucs-character. #x2018 works in XEmacs,
> ?\x2018 in Emacs, I believe - the function takes a simple number from
> the minibuffer as input. However, the documentation is in MULE-UCS
> package, you can refer to it there.

So œôòøthisœôòù should look nice to everyone that manages UTF-8?

It looks nice to me, with a vanilla Emacs 21 and vanilla RedHat fonts.

Err, Gnus won't let me post this mail.  QP encoding fails.  It seems
to think the (emacs) character set for this buffer should be
`eight-bit-control' instead of `mule-unicode-0100-24ff'.

Doesn't Gnus handle the Unicode stuff in Emacs 21?

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (error "Multibyte character in QP encoding region")
  signal(error ("Multibyte character in QP encoding region"))
  error("Multibyte character in QP encoding region")
  quoted-printable-encode-region(1 666 t)
  mm-encode-content-transfer-encoding(quoted-printable "text/plain")
  mm-body-encoding(eight-bit-control nil)
  mml-generate-mime-1(...
  mml-generate-mime-1(...
  mml-generate-mime()
  message-encode-message-body()
  message-send-mail(nil)
  message-send-via-mail(nil)
  message-send(nil)
  message-send-and-exit(nil)
  call-interactively(message-send-and-exit)

(I'm manually forcing this mail to be sent anyway, if you edit the
charset=eight-bit-control into charset=utf-8 maybe it works.)

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 408 bytes --]


> Character set       ‘   ’
> --------------------------
> Macintosh Roman    212 213
> Macintosh Cyrillic 212 213
> ISO 8859-7:1987    161 162
>
> If you want to get the ISO 8859-7 character, you can say:
>
> (make-char 'greek-iso8859-7 161)
> (make-char 'greek-iso8859-7 162)

Doesn't seem to work for me, the characters look like a upside down !
and a cents character with a vertical line.

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Nuutti Kotivuori]

Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Nuutti Kotivuori <nuutti.kotivuori@smarttrust.com> writes:
> 
>>> Anyone know how to insert the U+2018 and U+2019 characters in
>>> emacs?
>>
>> Assuming MULE-UCS - insert-ucs-character. #x2018 works in XEmacs,
>> ?\x2018 in Emacs, I believe - the function takes a simple number
>> from the minibuffer as input. However, the documentation is in
>> MULE-UCS package, you can refer to it there.
> 
> So ****this**** should look nice to everyone that manages UTF-8?

It didn't :) I replaced a whole load of crap with stars so the message
does not get split into 5 charset parts when sending ;)

> It looks nice to me, with a vanilla Emacs 21 and vanilla RedHat
> fonts.

After sending?

> Err, Gnus won't let me post this mail.  QP encoding fails.  It seems
> to think the (emacs) character set for this buffer should be
> `eight-bit-control' instead of `mule-unicode-0100-24ff'.

Hmm. Maybe mm-mime-mule-charset-alist might be in error. I think that
one uses unicode-a, unicode-b, ... for charsets, not
mule-unicode-something.

And another thing is in mm-find-mime-charset-region - it uses a rather
dumb logic in picking utf-8 as the encoding.

> Doesn't Gnus handle the Unicode stuff in Emacs 21?

No idea - I have gotten it to work in XEmacs with MULE-UCS and a small
hack to Gnus code.

[...]

> (I'm manually forcing this mail to be sent anyway, if you edit the
> charset=eight-bit-control into charset=utf-8 maybe it works.)

I got an error in QP decoding :)

>> Character set       ‘   ’
>> --------------------------
>> Macintosh Roman    212 213
>> Macintosh Cyrillic 212 213
>> ISO 8859-7:1987    161 162
>>
>> If you want to get the ISO 8859-7 character, you can say:
>>
>> (make-char 'greek-iso8859-7 161)
>> (make-char 'greek-iso8859-7 162)
> 
> Doesn't seem to work for me, the characters look like a upside down
> !  and a cents character with a vertical line.

Well, those two characters in the ISO 8859-7:1987 are defined to be:

Hex | Dec | Chr | Code | ISO/IEC 10646-1:2000 Character Name
----+-----+-----+------+----------------------------
 A1 | 161 |  ‘  | 8216 | LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK  
 A2 | 162 |  ’  | 8217 | RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK

How did you see the characters I put in the message? (after Character
set, up there). I put them in the buffer with insert-ucs-character. If
I am not entirely wrong, something bugs if you don't see them as
quotation marks - or can't insert them as such. The sending charset
for the message appears to be ISO-8859-7.

-- Naked

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Josh Huber]

Nuutti Kotivuori <nuutti.kotivuori@smarttrust.com> writes:

>> So ****this**** should look nice to everyone that manages UTF-8?
>
> It didn't :) I replaced a whole load of crap with stars so the message
> does not get split into 5 charset parts when sending ;)

Yeah, that definately showed up as garbage for me too.  btw, I'm also
running XEmacs with MULE-UCS.

> No idea - I have gotten it to work in XEmacs with MULE-UCS and a small
> hack to Gnus code.

What did you hack in the Gnus code?

> How did you see the characters I put in the message? (after
> Character set, up there). I put them in the buffer with
> insert-ucs-character. If I am not entirely wrong, something bugs if
> you don't see them as quotation marks - or can't insert them as
> such. The sending charset for the message appears to be ISO-8859-7.

They looked fine to me...

-- 
Josh Huber

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Nuutti Kotivuori]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 238 bytes --]

Josh Huber wrote:
> Nuutti Kotivuori <nuutti.kotivuori@smarttrust.com> writes:
>> No idea - I have gotten it to work in XEmacs with MULE-UCS and a
>> small hack to Gnus code.
> 
> What did you hack in the Gnus code?

Just a small thing:


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: utf-8-patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 686 bytes --]

Index: mm-util.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/gnus/lisp/mm-util.el,v
retrieving revision 6.22
diff -u -r6.22 mm-util.el
--- mm-util.el	2001/08/04 02:13:35	6.22
+++ mm-util.el	2001/08/31 14:06:06
@@ -356,10 +356,7 @@
     (when (memq 'iso-2022-jp-2 charsets)
       (setq charsets (delq 'iso-2022-jp charsets)))
     (setq charsets (mm-delete-duplicates charsets))
-    (if (and (> (length charsets) 1)
-	     (fboundp 'find-coding-systems-region)
-	     (let ((cs (find-coding-systems-region b e)))
-	       (or (memq 'utf-8 cs) (memq 'mule-utf-8 cs))))
+    (if (> (length charsets))
 	'(utf-8)
       charsets)))
 

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 214 bytes --]


Makes it assume that if there's more than one charset, use
UTF-8. XEmacs does not have find-coding-systems-region.

And this is an ugly hack that works for me, not good enough to include
somewhere else.

-- Naked

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Daniel Pittman]

On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Nuutti Kotivuori wrote:
> Josh Huber wrote:
>> Nuutti Kotivuori <nuutti.kotivuori@smarttrust.com> writes:
>>> No idea - I have gotten it to work in XEmacs with MULE-UCS and a
>>> small hack to Gnus code.
>> 
>> What did you hack in the Gnus code?
> 
> Just a small thing:

[...]

> Makes it assume that if there's more than one charset, use
> UTF-8. XEmacs does not have find-coding-systems-region.

...that reports utf-8. At least, it has that function but no utf-8
support (which is sane; it does not (as such) support it) in the recent
beta and gamma releases.

     Daniel, who has used this and is still considering a `defadvice'...

-- 
We have the Bill of Rights. What we need is a Bill of Responsibilities.
        -- Bill Maher

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Nuutti Kotivuori]

Josh Huber wrote:
>> How did you see the characters I put in the message? (after
>> Character set, up there). I put them in the buffer with
>> insert-ucs-character. If I am not entirely wrong, something bugs if
>> you don't see them as quotation marks - or can't insert them as
>> such. The sending charset for the message appears to be ISO-8859-7.
> 
> They looked fine to me...

I'll try some ascii art :)

This is how they looked in my font:

    ##         ##
    ##         ##
     #         #
    #           #

And this is how they should be:

     #         ##
    #          ##
    ##          #
    ##         #

So my font is a bit in error but the character codes are right.

-- Naked

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Simon Josefsson]

Nuutti Kotivuori <nuutti.kotivuori@smarttrust.com> writes:

>> It looks nice to me, with a vanilla Emacs 21 and vanilla RedHat
>> fonts.
>
> After sending?

No.  Gnus wouldn't let me post it as UTF-8.

>>> Character set       ‘   ’
>>> --------------------------
>>> Macintosh Roman    212 213
>>> Macintosh Cyrillic 212 213
>>> ISO 8859-7:1987    161 162
>>>
>>> If you want to get the ISO 8859-7 character, you can say:
>>>
>>> (make-char 'greek-iso8859-7 161)
>>> (make-char 'greek-iso8859-7 162)
>> 
>> Doesn't seem to work for me, the characters look like a upside down
>> !  and a cents character with a vertical line.
>
> Well, those two characters in the ISO 8859-7:1987 are defined to be:
>
> Hex | Dec | Chr | Code | ISO/IEC 10646-1:2000 Character Name
> ----+-----+-----+------+----------------------------
>  A1 | 161 |  ‘  | 8216 | LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK  
>  A2 | 162 |  ’  | 8217 | RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK
>
> How did you see the characters I put in the message? (after Character
> set, up there). I put them in the buffer with insert-ucs-character. If
> I am not entirely wrong, something bugs if you don't see them as
> quotation marks - or can't insert them as such. The sending charset
> for the message appears to be ISO-8859-7.

The look like a upside down ! and a cents sign with a vertical line
instead of a diagonal one to me.  Emacs 21. Weird.

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Russ Allbery <rra@Stanford.EDU> writes:

>> fw> (Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)
>
>> Why is that?  It's often used in info docs....
>
> See <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/quotes.html>.

When Emacs stops using "`" in its documentation, you can start bugging
people not to use that character when talking about the documentation.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Kai Großjohann]

Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> writes:

> (Please don't use '`' as a quote sign.  Thanks.)

In an Emacs group, of all places, `foo' style quotations are okay,
IMHO.  Emacs users will have to make sure that `foo' comes out in a
readable way anyway.

kai
-- 
Symbol's function definition is void: signature

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Karl Kleinpaste]

Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> writes:
> I think '.' appears only if you have entered the group at least once
> after this new features was added to your copy of Gnus.

Considering that I am never getting dots in my ding *Summary* at all,
whatever is supposed to be dot'ing the *Summary* isn't doing its job.

OA  26-Aug > [  15: Henrik Enberg          ] Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines
O   26-Aug +---> [  23: -> ding@gnus.org       ] 
R + 26-Aug |   `---> [   9: Florian Weimer         ] 
R + 26-Aug |       +---> [  11: Amos Gouaux            ] 
R + 26-Aug |       |   `---> [  12: Russ Allbery           ] 
R + 26-Aug |       |       +---> [  12: Simon Josefsson        ] 
R + 26-Aug |       |       `---> [  15: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen] 
R + 26-Aug |       `---> [  12: Kai Großjohann         ] 
R   26-Aug `---> [  15: Florian Weimer         ] 
R   26-Aug     `---> [  13: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen] 
R   26-Aug   [  19: Simon Josefsson        ] Re: Possible FAQ entry: How do I archive/restore my (nnml) mail?
R   26-Aug   [  20: Laura Conrad           ] Recent CVS used with sc doesn't re-cite correctly.
R   26-Aug > [  15: Simon Josefsson        ] Re: self contained nnfolder
R   26-Aug `---> [  47: Nevin Kapur            ] 

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Florian Weimer]

Henrik Enberg <henrik@enberg.org> writes:

>> I think I've read about it here, but I can't find the message, and it
>> doesn't seem to be documented in the manual.
>
> It means that you haven't seen those articles before.

Ah, thanks.

> Info > Gnus > Summary Buffer > Marking Articles > Other Marks

WIBNI there was a reference to this node from the 'Summary Buffer
Lines' node?  I think people will look at it first when they are
looking for such information.

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> writes:

> WIBNI there was a reference to this node from the 'Summary Buffer
> Lines' node?  I think people will look at it first when they are
> looking for such information.

Well, there's a gazillion things that can appear on the summary buffer
lines.  Linking them all from that page would be, er, redundant.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: '.' at the beginning of summary buffer lines

[Emerick Rogul]

Henrik Enberg writes:

: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> wrote:
:: What does it mean?
:: 
:: I think I've read about it here, but I can't find the message, and it
:: doesn't seem to be documented in the manual.

: It means that you haven't seen those articles before.

Is there a way to turn this mark off?  I find it really
distracting...

-Emerick
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emerick Rogul             /\/     "how young are you, how old am i?
emerick@cs.bu.edu         /\/      let's count the rings around my eyes."
------------------------------------------------- 'i will dare', the mats