Alphabetetetetization

Alphabetetetetization

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Today's quiz is:  How are the following four names to be
alphabetizised?  

Nelson Jose dos Santos Ferreira
Kenichi Handa
Seokchan Lee
Enami Tsugutomo

Geez.  Why can't everybody have simple names, like us Norwegians?
Huh?  Huh?

(I *dare* you to pronounce "Ingebrigtsen" five times in a row.  Fast!
Scandinavians need not participate in this fun game.)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Jon Babcock]

If I understand the question correctly, here's three:

Kenichi Handa -> Handa [surname] Ken'ichi [given name]
Seokchan Lee -> Lee [surname] Seokchan [given name]
Enami Tsugutomo -> Tsugutomo [surname] Enami [given name] 

My guess is that the order you have them in now (given name followed
by surname) is the order that these gentlemen use for international
purposes. 

And, because I know ding members want to know but are too shy to ask,
a one sentence guide to Japanese pronunciation:

Pronounce every syllable in a word with equal stress in a light
staccato manner, the long vowels as two vowels, and double consonants
with a pause in between.

Jon Babcock

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[enami tsugutomo]

Jon Babcock <jon@kanji.com> writes:

> Enami Tsugutomo -> Tsugutomo [surname] Enami [given name] 

I'll bet that `enami' is surname (familyname) and `tsugutomo' is given
name :-)

enami.

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Hrvoje Niksic]

enami tsugutomo <enami@but-b.or.jp> writes:

> Jon Babcock <jon@kanji.com> writes:
> 
> > Enami Tsugutomo -> Tsugutomo [surname] Enami [given name] 
> 
> I'll bet that `enami' is surname (familyname) and `tsugutomo' is given
> name :-)

We believe you.  :-)

However, the practice in most European and American countries is for
the order to be:

   First-name Last-name

Thus `Hrvoje Niksic', `Jon Babcock', etc.  However, some languages --
most notably Japanese and Hungarian -- reverse that order.  The
"normal" way to write my name in Hungarian would be `Niksic Hrvoje'.

I have seen two ways of solving this.  One is to conform to the widely 
used standard, and just reverse the order to be compatible with
English.  Thus Zoltan Hidvegi, the Zsh maintainer, writes his name
just like that, while in Hungary it would be `Hidvegi Zoltan'.

Those who do not want to adhere to this often use the other solution
-- caps.  For instance, Tomohiko Morioka, the TM maintainer, writes as
MORIOKA Tomohiko, MORIOKA being all-caps to show that it is the family 
name (or "last" name.)

-- 
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
4.  Thou shalt not warlorde a sig if it bee the sig of Kibo, nor if
    it bee the sig of the Inner Circle.

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> However, the practice in most European and American countries is for
> the order to be:
> 
>    First-name Last-name

You mean:

   "Given name"  "Family name"

Calling them "first" and "last" is rilly culturally imperialistic.  Or
something.  

> Thus `Hrvoje Niksic', `Jon Babcock', etc.  However, some languages --
> most notably Japanese and Hungarian -- reverse that order.  The
> "normal" way to write my name in Hungarian would be `Niksic Hrvoje'.

Oh, I didn't know that.  Is that just when writing, or do you say the
names that way as well?  Are there other European countries where they
do this?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:
> 
> > However, the practice in most European and American countries is for
> > the order to be:
> > 
> >    First-name Last-name
> 
> You mean:
> 
>    "Given name"  "Family name"
> 
> Calling them "first" and "last" is rilly culturally imperialistic.
> Or something.

Probably.  But keep in mind that terms "Given name" and "Family name"
are probably just as faulty.

> > Thus `Hrvoje Niksic', `Jon Babcock', etc.  However, some languages --
> > most notably Japanese and Hungarian -- reverse that order.  The
> > "normal" way to write my name in Hungarian would be `Niksic Hrvoje'.
> 
> Oh, I didn't know that.  Is that just when writing, or do you say the
> names that way as well?

I don't know, but I am certain for writing.  The poster for the "Satan
Tango" named the director "Tarr Bela", where Bela is the first (given)
name.  If I were to guess, I would say they pronunce it Tarr Bela,
too.

Any Hungarians to confirm/deny it here?

-- 
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
* Vi is the God of editors.
* Emacs is the editor of Gods.

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Istvan Marko]

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Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> 
> > Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:
> > 
> > > However, the practice in most European and American countries is for
> > > the order to be:
> > > 
> > >    First-name Last-name
> > 
> > You mean:
> > 
> >    "Given name"  "Family name"
> > 
> > Calling them "first" and "last" is rilly culturally imperialistic.
> > Or something.
> 
> Probably.  But keep in mind that terms "Given name" and "Family name"
> are probably just as faulty.
> 
> > > Thus `Hrvoje Niksic', `Jon Babcock', etc.  However, some languages --
> > > most notably Japanese and Hungarian -- reverse that order.  The
> > > "normal" way to write my name in Hungarian would be `Niksic Hrvoje'.
> > 
> > Oh, I didn't know that.  Is that just when writing, or do you say the
> > names that way as well?
> 
> I don't know, but I am certain for writing.  The poster for the "Satan
> Tango" named the director "Tarr Bela", where Bela is the first (given)
> name.  If I were to guess, I would say they pronunce it Tarr Bela,
> too.
> 
> Any Hungarians to confirm/deny it here?

You are correct. In Hungary my name is written and pronounced as Markó
István, but to avoid confusion I use Istvan Marko when speaking or
writing to non-Hungarians. I believe most Hungarians do this. 

-- 
	Istvan

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

    Lars> Oh, I didn't know that.  Is that just when writing, or do
    Lars> you say the names that way as well?  Are there other
    Lars> European countries where they do this?

France.[1]

Robert

Footnotes: 
[1]  But not very consistenly.

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Jan Vroonhof]

Kurt Swanson <ksw@dna.lth.se> writes:

> > Calling them "first" and "last" is rilly culturally imperialistic.  Or
> > something.  
> 
> A stronger empire would say "christian" and "last".

Not if that empire is dutch.

My name is

Johannes Gerardus Maria Vroonhof
-----------------------
 Christian names
                        --------
                         Family
Or short

Jan Vroonhof
---
  ^
  |---  Roepnaam "Common name"

Note that both versions of my first name are official. i.e. "Jan" is
not just an abbreviation.

Note that this concept is totally incompatible with Swiss bureaucracy
because the swiss do not use initials.

Therefore I get letters to "Johannes Vroonhof" (the last Johannes
Vroonhof died 50 years ago I believe). Or things like

Name (First/Christian name(s), Familly name): _________ (underline
							given name)

on a form. When I underlined a "J", an "a" and an "n" in Johannes they 
were not amuesed...

Back to Gnus,

Jan

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Lars Balker Rasmussen]

enami tsugutomo <enami@but-b.or.jp> writes:
> Jon Babcock <jon@kanji.com> writes:
> I'll bet that `enami' is surname (familyname) and `tsugutomo' is given
> name :-)

Yeah, but what do you know ;-)
-- 
Lars Balker Rasmussen, Software Engineer, Mjolner Informatics ApS
lbr@mjolner.dk

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Jon Babcock]

enami tsugutomo <enami@but-b.or.jp> wrote:

>   Jon Babcock <jon@kanji.com> writes:
>
>   > Enami Tsugutomo -> Tsugutomo [surname] Enami [given name] 
>
>   I'll bet that `enami' is surname (familyname) and `tsugutomo' is given
>   name :-)
>
>   enami.

I'll bet you're right!  My apologies, Enami-san. And just when I was
trying to make a good first impression, damn. 

Jon Babcock
jon@kanji.com

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Jon Babcock]

If the Japanese, Chinese, or Korean names appear in a comma-separated
list or where a comma might not be desired, then in addition to the
option of simply putting the names in Western (given name + surname)
order, another convention is to capitalize the surname, thus

HANDA Ken'ichi, LEE Seokchan, TSUGUTOMO Enami. 

Or, even, to capitalize the surname and put the name in Western order:

Ken'ichi HANDA, Seokchan LEE, Enami TSUGUTOMO.

I notice that this last method is the one used by "Ken'ichi HANDA"
himself in his messages to the mule list. I guess I'd vote for it.

Jon Babcock
jon@kanji.com

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Jon Babcock <jon@kanji.com> writes:

> If the Japanese, Chinese, or Korean names appear in a comma-separated
> list or where a comma might not be desired, then in addition to the
> option of simply putting the names in Western (given name + surname)
> order, another convention is to capitalize the surname, thus
> 
> HANDA Ken'ichi, LEE Seokchan, TSUGUTOMO Enami. 

I've put the names in a table, but I guess the same goes there...

On the other hand, the French also like to versalize the family name,
but since I don't do that, I should probably not versalize the family
names of Japanese people, huh?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Hrvoje Niksic]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

> (I *dare* you to pronounce "Ingebrigtsen" five times in a row.
> Fast!

Ha!  How about `Hrvoje'!

-- 
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> | Student at FER Zagreb, Croatia
--------------------------------+--------------------------------
Thou Who might be our Father Who perhaps may be in Heaven...
                                                -- Roger Zelazny

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@srce.hr> writes:

> Ha!  How about `Hrvoje'!

I've always pronounced that "hurr-voie".  If that's not the proper way
to pronounce it -- *make* *it* *so*.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Kurt Swanson <ksw@dna.lth.se> writes:

> > (I *dare* you to pronounce "Ingebrigtsen" five times in a row.  Fast!
> > Scandinavians need not participate in this fun game.)
> 
> Do I win a prize or is it considered cheating?

It's definitely cheating, because you know that you just have to
pronounce it the way it's written.  Simple!  Like kanji, almost.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Lars Balker Rasmussen]

Kurt Swanson <ksw@dna.lth.se> writes:
> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:
> > Geez.  Why can't everybody have simple names, like us Norwegians?
> > Huh?  Huh?
> 
> Huh?  First name, Lars - that's easy.  Father's family name Magne.
> Mother's family name Ingebrigtsen.  Ok!

Hmm, either the Norwegian habits are different from the Danish ones
(hard to imagine), or my parents have some really complicated explaining
to do :-)
-- 
Lars Balker Rasmussen, Software Engineer, Mjolner Informatics ApS
lbr@mjolner.dk

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Lars Balker Rasmussen <lbr@mjolner.dk> writes:

> > Huh?  First name, Lars - that's easy.  Father's family name Magne.
> > Mother's family name Ingebrigtsen.  Ok!
> 
> Hmm, either the Norwegian habits are different from the Danish ones
> (hard to imagine), or my parents have some really complicated explaining
> to do :-)

I think you'll have to have a Serious Talk with your parents; yes.

But I thought that in Denmark the middle name was inherited from the
last name of the father of the grandmother?  Or what?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen

Re: Alphabetetetetization

[Thorbjoern Ravn Andersen]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> But I thought that in Denmark the middle name was inherited from the
> last name of the father of the grandmother?  Or what?

Depends, there is no established rule.  My middlename was my mothers
middlename (which apparently was the last name _loooong_ back of some of
my maternal greatgrandmothers family).  Hey, you might be right, but it
is not common now a days at least :-)

--
  Thorbjørn Ravn Andersen               "...and...Tubular Bells!"
  http://www.mip.ou.dk/~ravn/
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