Multi-SMTP

Multi-SMTP

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

I'm wondering how the multi-SMTP stuff should work.

One approach would be to use group parameters, and add tokens like
(smtp (smtpmail "smtp.gmail.com" 583)) or something.

Message would then put this info into a header that would be saved, so
that saving to drafts/queues etc would work.

So that would be

X-Message-Outgoing-SMTP: smtpmail smtp.gmail.com 583

If you want sendmail, then that would be

X-Message-Outgoing-SMTP: sendmail

That would be a pretty flexible mechanism, and allow for easy
customisations by users.

On the Gnus side, one could then add "intelligent" rules for determining
where to send mail, although I'm not sure just how.  :-)  If the
Received line of the message you're answering contains smtp.work.com,
then use that as the outgoing MTA for your work email?  Hm...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 13:42:50 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: 

LI> I'm wondering how the multi-SMTP stuff should work.
LI> One approach would be to use group parameters, and add tokens like
LI> (smtp (smtpmail "smtp.gmail.com" 583)) or something.

Use a plist, please.  The tokens should be either

(smtp (smtpmail :machine "smtp.gmail.com" :port 583 :user "cafe" :password "mocha"))

which would then call to auth-source if the user name or password are
not provided, or 

(smtp 'function-or-symbol) ;; eval to get the plist, for easy auth-source integration

The latter format would have 'sendmail as a special case.  The function
call would get enough parameters to determine the right thing to do.

LI> Message would then put this info into a header that would be saved, so
LI> that saving to drafts/queues etc would work.

LI> So that would be

LI> X-Message-Outgoing-SMTP: smtpmail smtp.gmail.com 583

LI> If you want sendmail, then that would be

LI> X-Message-Outgoing-SMTP: sendmail

LI> That would be a pretty flexible mechanism, and allow for easy
LI> customisations by users.

Works for me, though the first one should be a plist.

LI> On the Gnus side, one could then add "intelligent" rules for determining
LI> where to send mail, although I'm not sure just how.  :-)  If the
LI> Received line of the message you're answering contains smtp.work.com,
LI> then use that as the outgoing MTA for your work email?  Hm...

Group/topic parameters should be sufficient IMO.

Ted

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> Use a plist, please.  The tokens should be either
>
> (smtp (smtpmail :machine "smtp.gmail.com" :port 583 :user "cafe"
> :password "mocha"))
>
> which would then call to auth-source if the user name or password are
> not provided, or 
>
> (smtp 'function-or-symbol) ;; eval to get the plist, for easy
> auth-source integration

Hm...  But we consult auth-source anyway to get the credentials, so why
would the user want to put the user name/password into the parameters?

Are there any use cases for sending messages via the same smtp server,
but with different user names?

> LI> That would be a pretty flexible mechanism, and allow for easy
> LI> customisations by users.
>
> Works for me, though the first one should be a plist.

I'd like to keep the header somewhat human-readable...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 14:32:23 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: 

LI> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>> Use a plist, please.  The tokens should be either
>> 
>> (smtp (smtpmail :machine "smtp.gmail.com" :port 583 :user "cafe"
>> :password "mocha"))
>> 
>> which would then call to auth-source if the user name or password are
>> not provided, or 
>> 
>> (smtp 'function-or-symbol) ;; eval to get the plist, for easy
>> auth-source integration

LI> Hm...  But we consult auth-source anyway to get the credentials, so why
LI> would the user want to put the user name/password into the
LI> parameters?

You're right, never mind.  In that case there's at most 2 parameters,
right?  machine and port?

LI> Are there any use cases for sending messages via the same smtp server,
LI> but with different user names?

Yes, GMail.  We must support that case, it's much more common now than
it used to be.

LI> I'd like to keep the header somewhat human-readable...

OK, if there's just the two parameters :)

Ted

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> LI> Are there any use cases for sending messages via the same smtp server,
> LI> but with different user names?
>
> Yes, GMail.  We must support that case, it's much more common now than
> it used to be.

Ah, right.  I'll add an (optional) user name parameter, too.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson]

> Are there any use cases for sending messages via the same smtp server,
> but with different user names?

Yes.  I'm currently doing that with one webmail provider where I have
two accounts.

I'm using msmtp and message-send-mail-hook to select which account based
on the From: header.


Johann

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Eric S Fraga]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> I'm wondering how the multi-SMTP stuff should work.

[...]

> On the Gnus side, one could then add "intelligent" rules for determining
> where to send mail, although I'm not sure just how.  :-)  If the
> Received line of the message you're answering contains smtp.work.com,
> then use that as the outgoing MTA for your work email?  Hm...

No, I would prefer explicit control of what smtp server to use as I
frequently respond to emails that have come into one account as if they
had come into another account (e.g. I receive personal emails on my work
account but would rather carry on the conversation on my personal
email).

Obviously, as a default in the absence of anything else, what you are
suggesting is fine.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.92.1 + Ma Gnus v0.2

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
>
>> I'm wondering how the multi-SMTP stuff should work.
>
> [...]
>
>> On the Gnus side, one could then add "intelligent" rules for determining
>> where to send mail, although I'm not sure just how.  :-)  If the
>> Received line of the message you're answering contains smtp.work.com,
>> then use that as the outgoing MTA for your work email?  Hm...
>
> No, I would prefer explicit control of what smtp server to use as I
> frequently respond to emails that have come into one account as if they
> had come into another account (e.g. I receive personal emails on my work
> account but would rather carry on the conversation on my personal
> email).
>
> Obviously, as a default in the absence of anything else, what you are
> suggesting is fine.

I like the idea of setting the smtp to use "token" (machine name in
authinfo) using gnus-posting styles. Easy then to set group/from specific.

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Memnon Anon]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> No, I would prefer explicit control of what smtp server to use as I
> frequently respond to emails that have come into one account as if they
> had come into another account (e.g. I receive personal emails on my work
> account but would rather carry on the conversation on my personal
> email).

JFYI,

I've got exactly this behaviour atm with msmtp and
gnus-personality which is packaged for debian in the gnus-bonus package.

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Eric S Fraga]

Memnon Anon <gegendosenfleisch@googlemail.com> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> No, I would prefer explicit control of what smtp server to use as I
>> frequently respond to emails that have come into one account as if they
>> had come into another account (e.g. I receive personal emails on my work
>> account but would rather carry on the conversation on my personal
>> email).
>
> JFYI,
>
> I've got exactly this behaviour atm with msmtp and
> gnus-personality which is packaged for debian in the gnus-bonus
> package.

As do I, actually!  I was just responding to Lars's question regarding
default behaviour and how much gnus should do for the user.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.92.1 + Ma Gnus v0.2

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> No, I would prefer explicit control of what smtp server to use as I
> frequently respond to emails that have come into one account as if they
> had come into another account (e.g. I receive personal emails on my work
> account but would rather carry on the conversation on my personal
> email).

Sure.  Hm.  Should there be an explicit Message command for setting the
mail sending method, perhaps?

But I do think it would make sense to make it easy to be able to
configure the outgoing method based on the To address.  Does either Gnus
or Message already have a thing for customising the Message buffer based
on that?  I couldn't see anything obvious...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no  *  Sent from my Rome

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Eric S Fraga]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> No, I would prefer explicit control of what smtp server to use as I
>> frequently respond to emails that have come into one account as if they
>> had come into another account (e.g. I receive personal emails on my work
>> account but would rather carry on the conversation on my personal
>> email).
>
> Sure.  Hm.  Should there be an explicit Message command for setting the
> mail sending method, perhaps?
>
> But I do think it would make sense to make it easy to be able to
> configure the outgoing method based on the To address.  Does either Gnus
> or Message already have a thing for customising the Message buffer based
> on that?  I couldn't see anything obvious...

No idea.  I manage this by posting styles based on folders and splitting
of emails to end up in the right folders.  If I get an email in a "work"
folder, say, that I want to respond as a "personal" email, I manually
move the original mail to a suitable folder and then respond.  Not ideal
but it works...

thanks,
eric
-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.92.1 + Ma Gnus v0.2

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
>
>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>> No, I would prefer explicit control of what smtp server to use as I
>>> frequently respond to emails that have come into one account as if they
>>> had come into another account (e.g. I receive personal emails on my work
>>> account but would rather carry on the conversation on my personal
>>> email).
>>
>> Sure.  Hm.  Should there be an explicit Message command for setting the
>> mail sending method, perhaps?
>>
>> But I do think it would make sense to make it easy to be able to
>> configure the outgoing method based on the To address.  Does either Gnus
>> or Message already have a thing for customising the Message buffer based
>> on that?  I couldn't see anything obvious...
>
> No idea.  I manage this by posting styles based on folders and splitting
> of emails to end up in the right folders.  If I get an email in a "work"
> folder, say, that I want to respond as a "personal" email, I manually
> move the original mail to a suitable folder and then respond.  Not ideal
> but it works...

Can you explain in more detail about why you would want smtp based on to
address as additional functionality? smtp is about sending so its clear
that from address/group drives this in the *normal* situation :
especially since some smtp services wont allow a different from address
to the account authorized user (gmail for example). I wonder if the
better work model would be to split incoming based on *from* address
when they're spooled in and then simply use gnus posting styles
attributes to indicate the smtp outgoing server line in authinfo to
utilise : therefore the development effort is curtailed to simply
outgoing smtp server selection : which really should be selectable by
gnus-posting-styles which is an existing proven, documented and
customisable method of guiding gnus.

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Eric S Fraga]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@gmail.com> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
>>
>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> No, I would prefer explicit control of what smtp server to use as I
>>>> frequently respond to emails that have come into one account as if they
>>>> had come into another account (e.g. I receive personal emails on my work
>>>> account but would rather carry on the conversation on my personal
>>>> email).
>>>
>>> Sure.  Hm.  Should there be an explicit Message command for setting the
>>> mail sending method, perhaps?
>>>
>>> But I do think it would make sense to make it easy to be able to
>>> configure the outgoing method based on the To address.  Does either Gnus
>>> or Message already have a thing for customising the Message buffer based
>>> on that?  I couldn't see anything obvious...
>>
>> No idea.  I manage this by posting styles based on folders and splitting
>> of emails to end up in the right folders.  If I get an email in a "work"
>> folder, say, that I want to respond as a "personal" email, I manually
>> move the original mail to a suitable folder and then respond.  Not ideal
>> but it works...
>
> Can you explain in more detail about why you would want smtp based on to
> address as additional functionality? smtp is about sending so its clear

because, for some recipients, I would like my emails to come from a
specific account and not another.  e.g. personal mailing lists that have
nothing to do with work.

> that from address/group drives this in the *normal* situation :
> especially since some smtp services wont allow a different from address
> to the account authorized user (gmail for example). I wonder if the

yes, of course, so the from address would need to be appropriately set
to be consistent with the smtp server used.

> better work model would be to split incoming based on *from* address
> when they're spooled in and then simply use gnus posting styles
> attributes to indicate the smtp outgoing server line in authinfo to
> utilise : therefore the development effort is curtailed to simply
> outgoing smtp server selection : which really should be selectable by
> gnus-posting-styles which is an existing proven, documented and
> customisable method of guiding gnus.

which is what I make use of at present and I am generally happy with
this.  I can do without any extra functionality so long as I have an
easy way to have the smtp server chosen be under my control, be it by
posting-styles or whatever.

I didn't start this thread...  if you read the originating post by Lars,
I was simply responding to the suggestion of setting the smtp server
based on the Received-by header line.  This would conflict with
posting-styles potentially and that's really all I was trying to
indicate.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.92.1 + Ma Gnus v0.2

Re: Multi-SMTP

[Richard Riley]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrg@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> No, I would prefer explicit control of what smtp server to use as I
>>>>> frequently respond to emails that have come into one account as if they
>>>>> had come into another account (e.g. I receive personal emails on my work
>>>>> account but would rather carry on the conversation on my personal
>>>>> email).
>>>>
>>>> Sure.  Hm.  Should there be an explicit Message command for setting the
>>>> mail sending method, perhaps?
>>>>
>>>> But I do think it would make sense to make it easy to be able to
>>>> configure the outgoing method based on the To address.  Does either Gnus
>>>> or Message already have a thing for customising the Message buffer based
>>>> on that?  I couldn't see anything obvious...
>>>
>>> No idea.  I manage this by posting styles based on folders and splitting
>>> of emails to end up in the right folders.  If I get an email in a "work"
>>> folder, say, that I want to respond as a "personal" email, I manually
>>> move the original mail to a suitable folder and then respond.  Not ideal
>>> but it works...
>>
>> Can you explain in more detail about why you would want smtp based on to
>> address as additional functionality? smtp is about sending so its clear
>
> because, for some recipients, I would like my emails to come from a
> specific account and not another.  e.g. personal mailing lists that have
> nothing to do with work.
>
>> that from address/group drives this in the *normal* situation :
>> especially since some smtp services wont allow a different from address
>> to the account authorized user (gmail for example). I wonder if the
>
> yes, of course, so the from address would need to be appropriately set
> to be consistent with the smtp server used.

Sure, I was just suggesting that this can be done by splitting on email
address and then using the gnus posting styles which are, to my
understanding and usage patterns, based on group name. So if smtp
selection is done there then you would automatically have this
functionality - ie *if* that was enough there  would be
nothing more to implement if posting styles where used to set the index
into the auth source files. I guess I was just waving a flag to say
posting styles are where it would seem appropriate to select the smtp
"token" - possibly even over group parameters which I tend to find a
little "hidden" as opposed to have all control done in the one place ie
smtp, sig, agent etc set in the relevant posting styles and of course
defaulting to the base "match all" posting style.

cheers

r.