mail

mail

[michael lamoureux]

so, I bit the bullet last night, and set up sgnus to read mail.  I've
plowed through the manual and the FAQ, and I can't find a solution to
this (though I beleive it was answered within the last month here).

[problem description deleted -- mjl]

I solved it.  Basically, I set up an nnml secondary-select method, and
couldn't find some of the groups when the mail came in.  I went
through a LOT of pain to find them.  Shouldn't they just automatically
show up the first time mail arrives in the groups?  My worry is that I
won't notice when I get mail to one of those groups I set up for
people I don't get mail from very often.


Also, I can't get supercite to work even though I have this set:

(autoload 'sc-cite-original "supercite" "Supercite 3.0" t)
(setq mail-citation-hook 'sc-cite-original
      message-cite-hook 'sc-cite-original)

(I didn't care that supercite wasn't working with news, but I want it
for mail)


thanks,
Michael

Re: mail

[Steven L Baur]

>>>>> "michael" == michael lamoureux <lamour@engin.umich.edu> writes:

michael> [problem description deleted -- mjl]

michael> I solved it.  Basically, I set up an nnml secondary-select
michael> method, and couldn't find some of the groups when the mail
michael> came in.  I went through a LOT of pain to find them.
michael> Shouldn't they just automatically show up the first time mail
michael> arrives in the groups?  My worry is that I won't notice when
michael> I get mail to one of those groups I set up for people I don't
michael> get mail from very often.

This can be a problem.  I don't have good solution either.  Adding
groups for me is a manual process.

I solve it by creating the group with G m and positioning it to the
location (position in *Group* buffer, or Topic) I want it to be.
Setting the level to 2 or 1 if it is a group which will have mail
automatically put in it.  After I'm sure what the headers look like
for messages I want put in the group I will add the appropriate recipe
to my .procmailrc.  This works only if the set of groups is fairly
static.

I've been experimenting with various color schemes in the
gnus-group-highlight variable (a very nifty September Gnus feature!),
but haven't found something I really like yet.  The closest has been
to vary the shade depending on subscription level.

michael> Also, I can't get supercite to work even though I have this set:

	http://www.miranova.com/~steve/gnus-faq.html#Q2_12

Regards,
-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be proofread for $250/hour.
Andrea Seastrand: For your vote on the Telecom bill, I will vote for anyone
except you in November.

Re: mail

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

michael lamoureux <lamour@engin.umich.edu> writes:

> I solved it.  Basically, I set up an nnml secondary-select method, and
> couldn't find some of the groups when the mail came in.  I went
> through a LOT of pain to find them.  Shouldn't they just automatically
> show up the first time mail arrives in the groups? 

Yes, new nnml groups should be automatically subscribed.  The
`gnus-auto-subscribed-groups' matches groups to be subscribed.  If
this doesn't work, report it with `M-x gnus-bug'.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

Re: mail

[Steven L Baur]

>>>>> "Lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

Lars> michael lamoureux <lamour@engin.umich.edu> writes:
>> I solved it.  Basically, I set up an nnml secondary-select method, and
>> couldn't find some of the groups when the mail came in.  I went
>> through a LOT of pain to find them.  Shouldn't they just automatically
>> show up the first time mail arrives in the groups? 

This is an excellent, pertinent question.  Even when new groups get
subscribed there is the possibility of them getting lost.  I didn't
make this clear in my first response.

Lars> Yes, new nnml groups should be automatically subscribed.  The
Lars> `gnus-auto-subscribed-groups' matches groups to be subscribed.  If
Lars> this doesn't work, report it with `M-x gnus-bug'.

Assuming the user is using Topics, what Topic are new groups
subscribed into?  What can be done to customize this?  I cannot find
the answers to these questions in the User's Manual.  It might be
useful to have a Gnus-defined Topic named ``Newly Created Groups'',
where all new groups go into when initially subscribed.  If Novice
mode is selected, it probably shouldn't be allowed to be folded (or at
least required to be visible when Gnus is [re]started).

Considering that the norm will be (if not already) the user having
access to 10s of thousands newsgroups, the mechanism for placement of
newly subscribed groups will have to be as carefully done as mail
splitting is done now.

As an aside:
Although not bug free, the current implementation of Topics is quite
good, and at least an order of magnitude more useful than the original
Gnus 5 implementation.  I can hardly wait until I get my hands on drag
& drop XEmacs to play around with Group/Topic maintenance :-).
-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be proofread for $250/hour.
Andrea Seastrand: For your vote on the Telecom bill, I will vote for anyone
except you in November.

Re: mail

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

> Assuming the user is using Topics, what Topic are new groups
> subscribed into? 

The top-level topic -- "Gnus".  

> What can be done to customize this? 

Uhm.  Nothing?  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

Re: mail

[michael lamoureux]

 "steven" == Steven L Baur <steve@miranova.com> writes:

>>>>>> "michael" == michael lamoureux <lamour@engin.umich.edu> writes:

michael> Also, I can't get supercite to work even though I have this set:

steven> 	http://www.miranova.com/~steve/gnus-faq.html#Q2_12

This wasn't a very helpful answer.  I had already read the FAQ about 3
times, setup.el twice, and parts of the gnus manual several times
before posting.  The problem (which was probably totally obvious to
everyone else) was that it's "message-cite-function" not
"message-cite-hook".  I could have stared at it for hours and still
not noticed that if someone else hadn't sent me mail to point it out
(and I even stared at the mail for a few minutes before I noticed).
Somehow my brain was interpreting those two to be equal.


Other things:

I hate directories with capital letters in them.  Why do I have to
change so many variables to get everything in lower-case "news" and
"mail" directories?  Shouldn't the defaults be set up a little more
hierarchically?

It's not totally clear to me where score files for mail should go
(assuming that I have news stuff in "news" and mail stuff in "mail").
All I have now is a score file to turn off scoring in nnml groups, so,
I just put a copy in both dirs just in case, but I guess I should
really figure out which one gnus is using, before I start adding any
scoring rules for mailing lists.

The one thing that's bugging me a little about reading mail in gnus is
that, well, it's too much like a newsreader.  ;-)   Is there any easy
way to make mail groups with no unread messages still be visible and
make read messages still be visible within the groups (even if it's a
special keystroke to bring them up, I don't care...I kind of like them
out of the way, but I'd like to be able to bring them up easily when I
need to read old messages).  the only thing I can think of would maybe
be to browse the server, and read them that way.  How does everyone
else deal with reading old mail?

um, what happened to the help group.  It used to be in some file
called doc.txt or something like that, but that file isn't in the
latest distributions (I just noticed it was missing the other day, but
it may have been missing for quite a while now).  I still have the
group that was created back in the beginning of time which points at
that file.  What did I miss?


thanks,
Michael

Re: mail

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

michael lamoureux <lamour@engin.umich.edu> writes:

> I hate directories with capital letters in them.  Why do I have to
> change so many variables to get everything in lower-case "news" and
> "mail" directories?  Shouldn't the defaults be set up a little more
> hierarchically?

The defaults are "~/News/" and "~/Mail/" and have been that since the
beginning of time.  If you don't like that, then change that.

> It's not totally clear to me where score files for mail should go
> (assuming that I have news stuff in "news" and mail stuff in "mail").

Anything to do with Gnus goes into "~/News/".  Anything to do with
mail backends goes into "~/Mail/".  Score files have nothing to do
with mail backends.

> The one thing that's bugging me a little about reading mail in gnus is
> that, well, it's too much like a newsreader.  ;-)   Is there any easy
> way to make mail groups with no unread messages still be visible

`gnus-permanently-visible-groups'

> and make read messages still be visible within the groups

`C-u RET'

> um, what happened to the help group.  It used to be in some file
> called doc.txt or something like that, but that file isn't in the
> latest distributions 

"etc/gnus-tut.txt"

-- 
  "Yes.  The journey through the human heart 
     would have to wait until some other time."

Re: mail

[Danny Siu]

michael lamoureux writes:
  michael> The one thing that's bugging me a little about reading mail in
  michael> gnus is that, well, it's too much like a newsreader.  ;-) Is
  michael> there any easy way to make mail groups with no unread messages
  michael> still be visible and make read messages still be visible within
  michael> the groups (even if it's a special keystroke to bring them up, I
  michael> don't care...I kind of like them out of the way, but I'd like to
  michael> be able to bring them up easily when I need to read old

Try "L" in the group buffer.  It takes a while to display since it lists all
groups.  Does anyone have a better solution?  I don't need to do it this way
since my nnfolder groups are always displayed in the summery buffer even
with no unread messages.

  michael> messages).  the only thing I can think of would maybe be to
  michael> browse the server, and read them that way.  How does everyone
  michael> else deal with reading old mail?

I use nndoc groups for my old mails (in both unix mbox and rmail babyl
format).

-- 
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Re: mail

[Ketil Z Malde]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

> The defaults are "~/News/" and "~/Mail/" and have been that since the
> beginning of time.  If you don't like that, then change that.

I think the point was that you have to change so many variables --
forget one of them, and you end up with both ~/Mail and ~/mail
directories, and god knows what ends up where.

IMHO, there should be two variables, say mail-directory-prefix and
gnus-directory-prefix or some such, which all the other variables could
default to.  No?

~kzm
PS: New score syntax?  I likes it.  I likes it a lot.  (G.S: no longer
shall I suffer thine ignorance :-)

Re: mail

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Ketil Z Malde <ketil@ii.uib.no> writes:

> IMHO, there should be two variables, say mail-directory-prefix and
> gnus-directory-prefix or some such, which all the other variables could
> default to.  No?

I think all the Gnusey variables are initilized from the "SAVEDIR"
environment variable.

-- 
  "Yes.  The journey through the human heart 
     would have to wait until some other time."

Re: mail

[Hallvard B Furuseth]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:
> Ketil Z Malde <ketil@ii.uib.no> writes:
> 
>> IMHO, there should be two variables, say mail-directory-prefix and
>> gnus-directory-prefix or some such, which all the other variables could
>> default to.  No?
> 
> I think all the Gnusey variables are initilized from the "SAVEDIR"
> environment variable.

Well, except this one -- I don't know if the directory name is relevant
(is it used for a default filename or something?).  If not, you might
just as well use directory `/' instead; it can be accessed faster:-)

(defun gnus-score-score-files-1 (dir)
        ...
        ;; Return a dummy value.
        (list "~/News/this.file.does.not.exist.SCORE"))))



And there is no Mailey variable to set these defaults from:

gnus.el:	(defvar gnus-message-archive-method 
		  '(nnfolder "archive" (nnfolder-directory "~/Mail/archive/")
		             (nnfolder-active-file "~/Mail/archive/active")
			     ...))
message.el:	(defvar message-autosave-directory "~/Mail/drafts/"
nnfolder.el:	(defvoo nnfolder-directory (expand-file-name "~/Mail/")
nnmh.el:	(defvoo nnmh-directory "~/Mail/"
nnml.el:	(defvoo nnml-directory "~/Mail/"


Regards,

Hallvard

Re: mail

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth@usit.uio.no> writes:

> Well, except this one -- I don't know if the directory name is relevant
> (is it used for a default filename or something?).  If not, you might
> just as well use directory `/' instead; it can be accessed faster:-)
> 
> (defun gnus-score-score-files-1 (dir)
>         ...
>         ;; Return a dummy value.
>         (list "~/News/this.file.does.not.exist.SCORE"))))

Nope; it's just used to have something to match agains the group
name.  It isn't ever used as a file, if my memory serves me right.

> And there is no Mailey variable to set these defaults from:

I've now introduced a new variable -- `message-directory'.  All mail
directory variables are now derived from that variable.  I've also
introduced a `gnus-directory' variable, from which all Gnus file names
are derived.  It is initialized from "SAVEDIR", so users shouldn't
notice anything.  Except that they may now set that variable instead
of the "SAVEDIR" environment variable.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@ifi.uio.no * Lars Ingebrigtsen

Re: mail

[michael lamoureux]

 "lars" == Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@ifi.uio.no> writes:

lars> Ketil Z Malde <ketil@ii.uib.no> writes:
>> IMHO, there should be two variables, say mail-directory-prefix and
>> gnus-directory-prefix or some such, which all the other variables could
>> default to.  No?

lars> I think all the Gnusey variables are initilized from the "SAVEDIR"
lars> environment variable.

Well, based on what the Info docs said were the defaults, this is what
I have set:

(setq gnus-article-save-directory "~/news/"
      gnus-kill-files-directory "~/news/"
      gnus-nocem-directory "~/news/NoCeM/"
      gnus-sent-message-ids-file "~/news/Sent-Message-IDs")

(setq nnml-directory "~/mail"
      nnmail-crash-box "~/mail/.gnus-crash-box"
      nnmail-message-id-cache-file "~/mail/.nnmail-cache")


Did I not really need to set all of those?  If the values of these
variables are based on the setting of another variable, then it was
not stated in the Info docs where the variables were discussed.  I
don't even remember seeing anything about a SAVEDIR environment
variable.  Where is it discussed?  Is there a similar thing for mail?
Is there a lisp variable that does this, or do I have to use an
environment variable?

I also have no way of knowing if I missed a variable somewhere.  And
what happens when a new variable gets added that I don't have set?  I
just want to set two variables and have everything go in either ~/mail
or ~/news.


fyi,
Michael

Re: mail

[Mark Eichin]

As far as I can tell, it's sufficient to change

(setq gnus-startup-file "~/.mit-newsrc")
(setq nnml-directory "~/MITmail/")
(setq nnmail-crash-box "~/.mit-gnus-crash-box")
(setq nnml-newsgroups-file 
  (concat (file-name-as-directory nnml-directory) "newsgroups"))

(setq gnus-message-archive-method
      '(nnfolder "archive" 
		 (nnfolder-directory "~/MITmail/archive/")
		 (nnfolder-active-file "~/MITmail/archive/active")
		 (nnfolder-get-new-mail nil)
		 (nnfolder-inhibit-expiry t)))

but that's only for mail, that doesn't cover news at all. I had to
read source to find these (and didn't get it right the first few
times, but we've already established that gnus is more clever than I
am :-) so it might be useful to put an example in the doc somewhere...

Re: mail

[Steven L Baur]

>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Eichin <eichin@cygnus.com> writes:

Mark> so it might be useful to put an example in the doc somewhere...

O.K.
	http://www.miranova.com/~steve/gnus-faq.html#Q2_13
-- 
steve@miranova.com baur
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be proofread for $250/hour.
Andrea Seastrand: For your vote on the Telecom bill, I will vote for anyone
except you in November.