* Mule-begot problems @ 1998-01-06 10:32 Jon Babcock 1998-01-06 13:28 ` Tore Olsen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Jon Babcock @ 1998-01-06 10:32 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: michael Gentle dingnostica, What are the problems that Mule introduces to Emacs and Gnus? I just read in a private response to my last message that it breaks POP. Anything else? I want to mention the most serious Mule-inspired objections to Emacs 20.x and specifically to Gnus in an article I'm writing for LJ. Actually, the original article was written last March, long before the official Emacs-Mule merge, and now that LJ is finally getting around to schedule it for printing, I find that a number of those who belong to the Faith of Emacs are crying out ... in pain. Anybody know why? It doesn't use Unicode and the documentation stinks * ... I know about these. Jon Babcock jon@kanji.com * In April, 1995, I bought a book on Mule that turned out to be mostly on Emacs (in Japanese, ISBN4-7561-0300-6) and that helped slightly. And I looked through some of the early Japanese documentation, too, which allowed me to at least install and run it. Sort of. But it wasn't until Stallman wrote the info stuff that was to end up accompanying Emacs 20.1 that I could get the beginning of an overview. (Yeah, I know, I'm dumb or I guess so ...) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Mule-begot problems 1998-01-06 10:32 Mule-begot problems Jon Babcock @ 1998-01-06 13:28 ` Tore Olsen 1998-01-06 18:26 ` Jon Babcock 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Tore Olsen @ 1998-01-06 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ding, michael Jon Babcock <jon@kanji.com> writes: > Gentle dingnostica, > > What are the problems that Mule introduces to Emacs and Gnus? > > I just read in a private response to my last message that it breaks POP. > > Anything else? If you want arguments against MULE, I suggest you contact Erik Naggum <erik@naggum.no>. He's one of the GNU Emacs maintainer and probably the one crying out loudest against Mule. -Toreo -- Surprise, fear, and a ruthless dedication to the Gnu! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Mule-begot problems 1998-01-06 13:28 ` Tore Olsen @ 1998-01-06 18:26 ` Jon Babcock 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Jon Babcock @ 1998-01-06 18:26 UTC (permalink / raw) I've taken Tore Olsen's advice and have written to Erik Naggum. Thanks. I should have focused my question more specifically. What Mule-related problems have Gnus developers experienced? To read and write to mailing lists and newsgroups that use Japanese and Chinese, I need Gnus. To write articles and monographs that include CJK scripts, I need Emacs. If it were a question of only one script, say Japanese, then I could run a nipponized version of Linux, use kterm, etc. But it is precisely the ability to deal with multiple scripts that makes the new Emacs so attractive to me, whose background is classical Chinese and Buddhist prajnaparamita studies. I want to see that multi-script functionality become a solid part of Emacs so that Emacs offers the best solution in this area available anywhere. Jon Babcock jon@kanji.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Mule-begot problems @ 1998-01-06 20:12 Fabrice.Popineau [not found] ` <x7d8i55pen.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Fabrice.Popineau @ 1998-01-06 20:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Why should 8bits data be encoded in 7bits if the right Mime headers are stated ? Sendmail 8.8 handles this in a clever way: when talking to another mailer, it decides to convert or not 8bits data, depending on the result of the negociation (ESMTP, Obits uderstood). Fabrice Popineau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
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* Re: Mule-begot problems [not found] ` <x7d8i55pen.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> @ 1998-01-06 23:36 ` Jason L Tibbitts III [not found] ` <x7d8i5tber.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> 1998-01-07 7:56 ` Steinar Bang 1998-01-07 11:03 ` Kai Grossjohann 2 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Jason L Tibbitts III @ 1998-01-06 23:36 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: Rat> Because the MIME specifications say it should, because there are a lot Rat> of MTAs out there that are not "8-bit clean". And if my delivery agent recodes to 8-bit before dropping it in my mail spool? Rat> That is why all of the RFC 822 extensions that address 8-bit data Rat> specify that it should be encoded into a 7-bit format before Rat> transmission. But I don't recall anything that says the mangling cannot be undone upon receipt. There are legitimate ways that 8-bit data can end up in a spool without being sent over the network as 8-bit data. - J< ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
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* Re: Mule-begot problems [not found] ` <x7d8i5tber.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> @ 1998-01-07 2:07 ` Russ Allbery [not found] ` <x7zpl93paa.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 1998-01-07 2:07 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: >>>>>> "JLT" == Jason L Tibbitts <tibbs@hpc.uh.edu> writes: > JLT> And if my delivery agent recodes to 8-bit before dropping it in my > JLT> mail spool? > Wonderful for you... but it still technically breaks Internet mail > standards. The client is the agent that is supposed to decode the 7-bit > encoding. I don't believe the standard actually distinguishes between the local delivery agent and the client; as soon as the mail is no longer being transmitted via SMTP, I believe the standard is no longer relevant. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
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* Re: Mule-begot problems [not found] ` <x7zpl93paa.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> @ 1998-01-07 4:12 ` Russ Allbery 1998-01-07 5:14 ` Richard Coleman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Russ Allbery @ 1998-01-07 4:12 UTC (permalink / raw) Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: >>>>>> "RA" == Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> writes: > RA> I don't believe the standard actually distinguishes between the local > RA> delivery agent and the client; as soon as the mail is no longer being > RA> transmitted via SMTP, I believe the standard is no longer relevant. > Not as far as RFC 822 and its extensions are concerned. These are not > SMTP standards but the standards that define what is valid in an > Internet mail message, and they all say, "7-bit ASCII data". My contention is that as soon as the message is undergoing local delivery, it is no longer an Internet mail message. > Besides, MTAs should not perform any modification to a message that is > not strictly necessary to ensure proper delivery. The delivery agent is not an MTA. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Mule-begot problems [not found] ` <x7zpl93paa.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> 1998-01-07 4:12 ` Russ Allbery @ 1998-01-07 5:14 ` Richard Coleman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Richard Coleman @ 1998-01-07 5:14 UTC (permalink / raw) > RA> I don't believe the standard actually distinguishes between the local > RA> delivery agent and the client; as soon as the mail is no longer being > RA> transmitted via SMTP, I believe the standard is no longer relevant. > > Not as far as RFC 822 and its extensions are concerned. These are not SMTP > standards but the standards that define what is valid in an Internet mail > message, and they all say, "7-bit ASCII data". > This is incorrect. Checking RFC-822 Some message systems may store messages in formats that differ from the one specified in this standard. This specifica- tion is intended strictly as a definition of what message content format is to be passed BETWEEN hosts. Now mail clients may choose to store messages in a RFC-822 compliant way, but is a design decision of the client. There isn't any RFC which specifies a standard format for storing messages locally. It someone creates an 8-bit clean environment, Mule shouldn't break this. -- Richard Coleman coleman@math.gatech.edu ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Mule-begot problems [not found] ` <x7d8i55pen.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> 1998-01-06 23:36 ` Jason L Tibbitts III @ 1998-01-07 7:56 ` Steinar Bang 1998-01-07 11:03 ` Kai Grossjohann 2 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Steinar Bang @ 1998-01-07 7:56 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>: >>>>> "FP" == Fabrice Popineau <popineau@esemetz.ese-metz.fr> writes: FP> Why should 8bits data be encoded in 7bits if the right Mime headers are FP> stated ? > Because the MIME specifications say it should, because there are a lot of > MTAs out there that are not "8-bit clean". > Can you say "legacy system"? > That is why all of the RFC 822 extensions that address 8-bit data specify > that it should be encoded into a 7-bit format before transmission. Actually, I've been using this technique since I first started using MIME in 1993, ie. mark text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 as 8bit, and let the MTA and the recipient worry about the rest. The reason? Our (ie. the Norwegian email community's) legacy at that time, was to use ISO8859-1 characters and just-send-8. If I started using q-p (or base64 for that matter) on plain text with Norwegian characters, my correctly marked up article was perceived as broken. Today I currently have MTAs that does the breaking for me, unless the MTA they're talking to speaks ESMTP and understands 8BITMIME. What happens after the first MTA, I don't worry about. - Steinar ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: Mule-begot problems [not found] ` <x7d8i55pen.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> 1998-01-06 23:36 ` Jason L Tibbitts III 1998-01-07 7:56 ` Steinar Bang @ 1998-01-07 11:03 ` Kai Grossjohann 2 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Kai Grossjohann @ 1998-01-07 11:03 UTC (permalink / raw) >>>>> "FP" == Fabrice Popineau <popineau@esemetz.ese-metz.fr> writes: FP> Why should 8bits data be encoded in 7bits if the right Mime FP> headers are stated ? >>>>> On 06 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat said: Rat> Because the MIME specifications say it should, because there Rat> are a lot of MTAs out there that are not "8-bit clean". Fabrice mentioned that 8bit data is only sent if the receiving end indicates that it can understand that. There seems to be a protocol negotiation of some sort in ESMTP. I don't see anything wrong with two instances talking 8bit to each other after previously having established that they both understand it. kai -- Kai Grossjohann, Informatik VI grossjohann@ls6.cs.uni-dortmund.de Uni Dortmund, D-44221 Dortmund http://ls6-www.cs.uni-dortmund.de/ Vox +49 231 755 5670, Fax -2405 I like both kinds of music. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1998-01-07 11:03 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1998-01-06 10:32 Mule-begot problems Jon Babcock 1998-01-06 13:28 ` Tore Olsen 1998-01-06 18:26 ` Jon Babcock 1998-01-06 20:12 Fabrice.Popineau [not found] ` <x7d8i55pen.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> 1998-01-06 23:36 ` Jason L Tibbitts III [not found] ` <x7d8i5tber.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> 1998-01-07 2:07 ` Russ Allbery [not found] ` <x7zpl93paa.fsf@peorth.gweep.net> 1998-01-07 4:12 ` Russ Allbery 1998-01-07 5:14 ` Richard Coleman 1998-01-07 7:56 ` Steinar Bang 1998-01-07 11:03 ` Kai Grossjohann
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