Gnus development mailing list
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
* mail-host-address and i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
@ 2020-12-12 22:29 yarnton
  2020-12-12 22:53 ` Adam Sjøgren
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: yarnton @ 2020-12-12 22:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ding

Hi,

As far as I understand, the function message-make-fqdn in gnus/message.el concats the string "i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me" to system-name if that is not a fully qualified domain name. This is used to construct a unique Message-ID.

To be a bit more precise, it also checks the values of user-mail-address and mail-host-address before defaulting to string with the "tickle-me" substring.

I used to use Gnus, but my MUA these days is Notmuch. Notmuch and other packages use message.el, and I am trying to understand why I need to set up mail-host-address to something arbitrary (I use "gnu.org") in order to avoid the "tickle-me" string.

Is this a bug from Notmuch when calling message.el, some ancient setting from Gnus that doesn't play well with other packages, or something I'm doing wrong? In principle, I don't see why I need to set my email parameters in my .emacs. Those are a concern of Notmuch and MSTMP only.

I think Message-ID should reveal as little information as possible these days, as it can be used for identifying or at least fingerprinting messages. Whenever I use Emacs from a device where the hostname returns a fully qualified name like an IP address, that will leak into my Message-ID. Is there any technical reason for not constructing a random Message-ID like [UUID]@gnu.org?

Thanks.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: mail-host-address and i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
  2020-12-12 22:29 mail-host-address and i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me yarnton
@ 2020-12-12 22:53 ` Adam Sjøgren
  2020-12-13  3:48   ` 황병희
  2020-12-13 18:10   ` yarnton
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Adam Sjøgren @ 2020-12-12 22:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ding

yarnton@tutanota.com writes:

> In principle, I don't see why I need to set my email parameters in my
> .emacs. Those are a concern of Notmuch and MSTMP only.

If Emacs is generating the Message-ID, I'd say Emacs needs enough
information to do so - the recommended way is to put the host after the @.

You could argue that the recommendation is outdated.

> I think Message-ID should reveal as little information as possible
> these days, as it can be used for identifying or at least
> fingerprinting messages.

(The whole purpose of the Message-ID is to uniquely identify the
message! I guess you mean identifying... the sender? But that's also
done in From:, right? If you are thinking of identifying the machine
sending, then that is recorded in the Received headers as well, right?)

> Whenever I use Emacs from a device where the hostname returns a fully
> qualified name like an IP address, that will leak into my Message-ID.

(It is usually also recorded in the headers the MTAs add.)

> Is there any technical reason for not constructing a random Message-ID
> like [UUID]@gnu.org?

Not except for what RFC 2822 recommends:

 · https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2822#section-3.6.4

At least according to the logic in the RFC, you should put something you
control on the right side of the @, and not somebody else's host/domain
- but as long as the whole thing is unique, you should be good.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "I could't find my perfect attendance pencil, which        Adam Sjøgren
  is the only pencil I turned in [for sharpening]"     asjo@koldfront.dk



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: mail-host-address and i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
  2020-12-12 22:53 ` Adam Sjøgren
@ 2020-12-13  3:48   ` 황병희
  2020-12-13 18:10   ` yarnton
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: 황병희 @ 2020-12-13  3:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Gnus

> (The whole purpose of the Message-ID is to uniquely identify the
> message! I guess you mean identifying... the sender? But that's also
> done in From:, right? If you are thinking of identifying the machine
> sending, then that is recorded in the Received headers as well, right?)

I agree with Adam's comment.

Sincerely, Gnus fan Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _布德天下_ 감사합니다_^))//


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: mail-host-address and i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
  2020-12-12 22:53 ` Adam Sjøgren
  2020-12-13  3:48   ` 황병희
@ 2020-12-13 18:10   ` yarnton
  2020-12-13 21:28     ` Adam Sjøgren
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: yarnton @ 2020-12-13 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Sjøgren; +Cc: ding



> (The whole purpose of the Message-ID is to uniquely identify the
> message! I guess you mean identifying... the sender? But that's also
> done in From:, right? If you are thinking of identifying the machine
> sending, then that is recorded in the Received headers as well, right?)
>

Sure, but identifying a message in a unique way does not require leaking unnecessary information about the host. That was my point. The vast majority of the email clients put something pretty non-unique on the right hand side of the Message-ID like @emailservice.com or @localhost.localdomain (literally).

This still respects RFC 2822, as the left hand side of Message-ID is what makes the whole Message-ID likely to be unique.

From: and my IP address can be fairly anonymous, but that is not useful if Message-ID leaks my exact domain. For example, say my localhost gets set to some local domain name that is quite representative of where I am by dhcpd e.g., lab21.bio.dtu.dk. I am inadvertendly leaking more or less who I am.

An additional problem is that message-make-fqdn will concat the string ".i-did-not-set-mail-host-address--so-tickle-me" into Message-ID if it cannot construct a valid Message-ID. Gnus checks the Message-ID before sending, but other Emacs email clients do not. A different way of flagging an error might be more appropriate here.

In other words, I think the logic inside the message-mode function message-make-fqdn is a bit outdated for today's Internet. Furthermore, returning a special value to flag an error is not playing very will with other Emacs email clients aside from Gnus, as these do not check for the presence of "[...]-tickle-me" to flag an error before sending an email, nor show the Message-ID header when composing a message.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: mail-host-address and i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
  2020-12-13 18:10   ` yarnton
@ 2020-12-13 21:28     ` Adam Sjøgren
  2020-12-14 11:14       ` 황병희
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Adam Sjøgren @ 2020-12-13 21:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ding

yarnton@tutanota.com writes:

> I think the logic inside the message-mode function message-make-fqdn
> is a bit outdated for today's Internet.

What do you think it should do instead?


  Best regards,

   Adam

-- 
 "As a statue wearing complicated clothes                   Adam Sjøgren
  A monument to power, but on reconstrucdead toes      asjo@koldfront.dk



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: mail-host-address and i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
  2020-12-13 21:28     ` Adam Sjøgren
@ 2020-12-14 11:14       ` 황병희
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: 황병희 @ 2020-12-14 11:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Gnus

Adam Sjøgren <asjo@koldfront.dk> writes:

> yarnton@tutanota.com writes:
>
>> I think the logic inside the message-mode function message-make-fqdn
>> is a bit outdated for today's Internet.
>
> What do you think it should do instead?

Also i'm waiting for yarnton's comments. Because Message-ID is my favorite thing
in Gnus.

Sincerely, Gnus fan Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _白衣從軍_ 감사합니다_^))//


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-12-14 11:14 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 6+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-12-12 22:29 mail-host-address and i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me yarnton
2020-12-12 22:53 ` Adam Sjøgren
2020-12-13  3:48   ` 황병희
2020-12-13 18:10   ` yarnton
2020-12-13 21:28     ` Adam Sjøgren
2020-12-14 11:14       ` 황병희

Gnus development mailing list

This inbox may be cloned and mirrored by anyone:

	git clone --mirror http://inbox.vuxu.org/ding

	# If you have public-inbox 1.1+ installed, you may
	# initialize and index your mirror using the following commands:
	public-inbox-init -V1 ding ding/ http://inbox.vuxu.org/ding \
		ding@inbox.vuxu.org
	public-inbox-index ding

Example config snippet for mirrors.
Newsgroup available over NNTP:
	nntp://inbox.vuxu.org/vuxu.archive.emacs.gnus.general


AGPL code for this site: git clone https://public-inbox.org/public-inbox.git