On Sat, Dec 05, 2015 at 06:48:10PM -0800, Kevin Carhart wrote:
> 
> I know what you mean about this, except I'm
> not sure about "just", as in, solely or exclusively that.
> Isn't it, a lot of work in return for useless,
> visuals-related objects and methods, but
> aggregated together in a bundle
> (you have to implement the entire library
> or none,) with the
> potential for pragmatic and new use cases
> which may make the users happy?
> 
> I don't know though.  I take your point about
> being concerned about where it's heading.
> 
> I think the discrete, teletype web is often just
> better.  The chatty timers are new, and it's a
> little disconcerting to press 'db4' in edbrowse
> and realize that "oh, it's no longer entirely
> turn based - edbrowse is doing a layer of
> things without waiting for me to enable them."
> And the more the big websites are working, the more
> edbrowse is exposed to what you're talking about,
> like advertising and tracking.

May be but that's where we are. these features are often miss-used,
but discrete web browsing just can't work any more,
at least not if we actually want to remain a useful web browser.

> I remember reading the list thread earlier this
> year that took the example of a stock ticker.
> Weren't youall saying,
> maybe implement the chatty web in order to
> support more sites, but always have an interface
> that keeps the user in control with a discrete
> 'rr' command?  We have 'rr' now- isn't this the
> best of both worlds sort of?

Yeah, I think it's how we have to do things.
Unfortunately, as well as "fun" visuals,
a lot of this stuff is also "functional"
visuals like displaying parts of forms or displaying search results.
One thing I've used (can't remember exactly but I think it was Atlassian Jira)
returned json within an html element then used js to remunge this stuff into
actual search results. There are also other bits of software I regularly
encounter which use timers etc in ways which are tied into the functionality of
the web page and which don't work if ran manually.
For example Rundeck has some sort of timer based scripting to update log files
for executing jobs. Currently this doesn't work properly in Edbrowse (I think
we need AJAX for that as well... that's gonna be fun).

> >or covertly gather information on our net surfing habits,
> 
> Well, one remark on doing things covertly - edbrowse
> is very demystifying and a tool for demystification,
> I think.
> I would say it makes the covert overt.
> I think anyone trying to fight tracking has greater power over
> internet intrusions to the extent that they flow in in the
> form of a discrete CLI or a transactional, matter-of-fact
> timestamped log, and the further you get away from the quicksand of
> visually oriented design tricks which goes mercilessly
> right for your reptilian brain.

Perhaps, but I wonder if we don't need an extension mechanism so that ad
blockers and the like can be created for edbrowse.

> For instance, there's the clickbait.
> Web advertising uses finely honed images designed
> to be as compelling as possible to a viewer's baser
> impulses, probably focus-grouped, so that you will
> click through.  It works
> almost tautologically and is very manipulative.
> Then there's the streaming video advertising bloat,
> that you are obliged to download and that defaults to "play",
> like in the middle of a news story.  I associate this
> trick with The Guardian but I'm sure it is a lot of other
> places too.  Let's say the Huffington Post, they're
> notorious.
> Edbrowse is way less covert than this.  I could be
> overdramatizing, but I think if
> clickbait is a little like "bread and circuses," or the
> Roman coliseum, edbrowse restores some
> sanity to digitally-mediated environments.

I think this is a little over-dramatic tbh but I take your point.
However, we can't not develop features and modernise Edbrowse in an attempt to
ad block because then users just have to use other web browsers and interfaces
or not use most of the internet.

Cheers,
Adam.