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Shulman, Towards Third-Generation HOTT, April 14, 21, and 28 - HoTTEST Distinguished Lecture Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_14802_917609375.1650903836348" X-Original-Sender: jaycech3n@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list HomotopyTypeTheory@googlegroups.com; contact HomotopyTypeTheory+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1041266174716 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , ------=_Part_14802_917609375.1650903836348 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14803_632668548.1650903836349" ------=_Part_14803_632668548.1650903836349 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear David, It would be quite nice for those of us who are using our real, full names, and largely being civil in sharing our opinions, to know which of the multiple Davids in this area we are addressing when we have to respond to factual inaccuracies and charges of cowardice, please? I cannot deduce this from your anonymous email address. > People are in this very thread condemning him for his 'views'...you guys have cast the most outrageous aspersions against him, as if he were some kind of bigot. You might be mixing up the comments here and those on the GitHub PR. I don't see anyone here (myself included) condemning Mike or calling him a bigot, even though his choice of words in the PR was very regrettable in drawing the analogy between trans/non-binary people and "abnormalities", which is exactly the kind of thing that reinforces the prejudice that gets queer people harassed, assaulted, and killed (https://www.reuters.com/article/lgbt-crime-rights-idUSL8N2804FQ, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-zealand-lgbt-health-idUSKBN1W9057, https://vawnet.org/sc/serving-trans-and-non-binary-survivors-domestic-and-sexual-violence/violence-against-trans-and; I could go on). This will also be my last response on this thread, as I don't believe online debate with an anonymous, antagonistic interlocutor is productive. On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 10:36:13 AM UTC+1 David wrote: > I don't know what you mean that 'an attitude of social inclusion is of the > utmost importance'. In terms of priorities, it's certainly down in the > double digits for me (and likely for the rest of you too, if you're being > honest with yourself), not to say I don't find it important at all, just > that I think 'utmost' is overegging the custard. Also, I don't think that > anything that Mike said could possibly be construed as him having an > attitude of exclusion. He shows up in a thread, gives his two cents, and > then is put upon by people making demands that he speak in a certain way. > I have to ask: On what authority do these people rely to make such > demands? If it's not on the grounds of authority, the burden is on them to > persuade. > > What happened to Mike is a clear-cut case of academic bullying. People > who can't clearly stick up for him and want to hem and haw and sit on the > fence are absolute cowards, and the people condemning him outright are not > living in the real world. > > Best, > > David > > On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 8:36:55 PM UTC+1 anuyts wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Without implying my agreement with Davids entire mail, I do think the >> following argument: >> >> constantly changing, mind >> >> >> is rather important. I hope we all agree that an attitude of social >> inclusion is of the utmost importance. However, it is undeniable that >> insights as to what it entails to be socially inclusive are rapidly >> evolving (and understandably so: the cultures that we all grew up in are >> the same ones that produce the phenomena of social exclusion that we should >> seek to avoid). Even ignoring for a moment the possibility that this >> evolution may give rise to legitimate differences of opinion (a possibility >> which should not be ignored!), it is completely unreasonable to expect >> every single person to be on the vanguard of this evolution in every single >> aspect of it at every single point in time. >> Calling someone who exhibits exclusionary behaviour a bigot, suggests an >> inherent and permanent corruption of their personality. Most often, I >> think, we should instead explain exclusionary behaviour either from >> unawareness of some or all aspects of the problem, or from a lack of >> courage needed to rise up against the mechanisms of exclusion. >> >> If a person in a position of power or privilege should exhibit >> exclusionary behaviour, then this is a problem that requires attention. >> Discarding the person altogether is a simple but also wasteful, >> preposterous and unjust solution. Moreover, I would rather see people with >> exclusionary ideas (such as probably all of us in at least some way) speak >> up and lay out their arguments so that these can be refuted in a serene >> discussion, than I would see them stay silent and act according to their >> ideas for perhaps an entire lifetime. In my view, installing a culture of >> fear and self-censorship is counterproductive. >> >> That being said, I do think we all have the responsibility to adopt a >> proactive attitude in informing ourselves about phenomena of social >> in/exclusion (and other societal problems that we may have an impact on). >> In particular, we should be willing to learn when called out (and willing >> to explain when calling out) on our behaviour. >> >> Best regards, >> Andreas Nuyts >> >> >> On 23.04.22 15:03, David wrote: >> >> I literally cannot find anything wrong or upsetting or offensive in >> Mike's comments on the github. He got dislike-bombed for talking about a >> matter of style, and he got an avalanche of criticism for disagreeing with >> the latest newly-minted dogma of inclusivity. People are in this very >> thread condemning him for his 'views'. His views of what? Writing style? >> Grammar? By disagreeing with the (constantly changing, mind) new dogma, he >> had to endure a struggle session, and still, afterwards, he's being treated >> as a pariah and having his talks cancelled? >> >> Mike is one of the most important people in the field (top 3 for sure). >> He's demonstrated his bona fides (mathematical and otherwise) time and time >> again. He's a good guy, and you guys have cast the most outrageous >> aspersions against him, as if he were some kind of bigot. >> >> Come on. Get real. >> >> David >> >> On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 1:01:12 PM UTC+1 escardo...@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately, this is a lose-lose situation. But I find Josh's argument >>> below much more persuasive than mine above, and I agree with every single >>> word. Martin >>> >>> On Friday, 15 April 2022 at 10:29:41 UTC+1 Josh Chen wrote: >>> >>>> I find the situation unfortunate and was also very much looking forward >>>> to learning more from Mike, >>>> >>>> But as someone who followed the events that Andrej has described from >>>> the start, with sadness I support the decision by the HoTTEST organizers to >>>> not hold the lectures immediately thereafter under the auspices of a >>>> Distinguished series. >>>> >>>> If nothing else, I feel it would have been premature that soon, and >>>> would have worked against the goal of welcoming people of all gender >>>> presentations and identities. I am not myself trans and can thus easily >>>> afford to "tolerate" the public declaration of positions that lead to worse >>>> societal outcomes for them. But this is not the case for the significant >>>> number of trans people in, and adjacent to, the HoTT community, some of >>>> whom have to actively hide this part of themselves on pain of e.g. family >>>> violence. We should think about such things when considering using >>>> hot-button phrases like "political correctness" and "cancel culture". >>>> >>>> I certainly look forward to hearing about Mike's (and Thorsten's and >>>> Ambrus's) ideas in another format or on another occasion. >>>> >>>> With respect and kind regards, >>>> Josh >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Homotopy Type Theory" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to HomotopyTypeThe...@googlegroups.com. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/HomotopyTypeTheory/bfd91d1f-da88-4cbb-97ed-df868f6e7190n%40googlegroups.com >> >> . >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Homotopy Type Theory" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to HomotopyTypeTheory+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/HomotopyTypeTheory/5595508f-15bd-42a2-a350-103647bfac1an%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_14803_632668548.1650903836349 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear David,

It would be quite nice for those = of us who are using our real, full names, and largely being civil in sharin= g our opinions, to know which of the multiple Davids in this area we are ad= dressing when we have to respond to factual inaccuracies and charges of cow= ardice, please? I cannot deduce this from your anonymous email address.
=

> People are in this very thread condemning hi= m for his 'views'...you guys have cast the most outrageous aspersions again= st him, as if he were some kind of bigot.

You might be mixing u= p the comments here and those on the GitHub PR. I don't see anyone here (my= self included) condemning Mike or calling him a bigot, even though his choi= ce of words in the PR was very regrettable in drawing the analogy between t= rans/non-binary people and "abnormalities", which is exactly the kind of th= ing that reinforces the prejudice that gets queer people harassed, assaulte= d, and killed (https://www.reuters.com/article/lgbt-crime-rights-idUSL8N280= 4FQ, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-zealand-lgbt-health-idUSKBN1W90= 57, https://vawnet.org/sc/serving-trans-and-non-binary-survivors-domestic-a= nd-sexual-violence/violence-against-trans-and; I could go on).
This will also be my last response on this thread, as I don't = believe online debate with an anonymous, antagonistic interlocutor is produ= ctive.
On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 10:36:13 AM UTC+1 David wrote:
I don't kno= w what you mean that 'an attitude of social inclusion is of the utmost = importance'.=C2=A0 In terms of priorities, it's certainly down in t= he double digits for me (and likely for the rest of you too, if you're = being honest with yourself), not to say I don't find it important at al= l, just that I think 'utmost' is overegging the custard.=C2=A0 Also= , I don't think that anything that Mike said could possibly be construe= d as him having an attitude of exclusion.=C2=A0 He shows up in a thread, gi= ves his two cents, and then is put upon by people making demands that he sp= eak in a certain way.=C2=A0 I have to ask: On what authority do these peopl= e rely to make such demands?=C2=A0 If it's not on the grounds of author= ity, the burden is on them to persuade.

What happened to= Mike is a clear-cut case of academic bullying.=C2=A0 People who can't = clearly stick up for him and want to hem and haw and sit on the fence are a= bsolute cowards, and the people condemning him outright are not living in t= he real world.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Best,

David

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 8:36:55 PM UTC+1 an= uyts wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Dear all,

Without implying my agreement with Davids entire mail, I do think the following argument:

constantly changing, mind

is rather important. I hope we all agree that an attitude of social inclusion is of the utmost importance. However, it is undeniable that insights as to what it entails to be socially inclusive are rapidly evolving (and understandably so: the cultures that we all grew up in are the same ones that produce the phenomena of social exclusion that we should seek to avoid). Even ignoring for a moment the possibility that this evolution may give rise to legitimate differences of opinion (a possibility which should not be ignored!), it is completely unreasonable to expect every single person to be on the vanguard of this evolution in every single aspect of it at every single point in time.
Calling someone who exhibits exclusionary behaviour a bigot, suggests an inherent and permanent corruption of their personality. Most often, I think, we should instead explain exclusionary behaviour either from unawareness of some or all aspects of the problem, or from a lack of courage needed to rise up against the mechanisms of exclusion.

If a person in a position of power or privilege should exhibit exclusionary behaviour, then this is a problem that requires attention. Discarding the person altogether is a simple but also wasteful, preposterous and unjust solution. Moreover, I would rather see people with exclusionary ideas (such as probably all of us in at least some way) speak up and lay out their arguments so that these can be refuted in a serene discussion, than I would see them stay silent and act according to their ideas for perhaps an entire lifetime. In my view, installing a culture of fear and self-censorship is counterproductive.

That being said, I do think we all have the responsibility to adopt a proactive attitude in informing ourselves about phenomena of social in/exclusion (and other societal problems that we may have an impact on). In particular, we should be willing to learn when called out (and willing to explain when calling out) on our behaviour.

Best regards,
Andreas Nuyts


On 23.04.22 15:03, David wrote:
=20 I literally cannot find anything wrong or upsetting or offensive in Mike's comments on the github.=C2=A0 He got dislike-bombed for talking about a matter of style, and he got an avalanche of criticism for disagreeing with the latest newly-minted dogma of inclusivity.=C2=A0 People are in this very thread condemning him for his 'views'.=C2=A0 His views of what? Writing style? Grammar?= =C2=A0 By disagreeing with the (constantly changing, mind) new dogma, he had to endure a struggle session, and still, afterwards, he's being treated as a pariah and having his talks cancelled?

Mike is one of the most important people in the field (top 3 for sure).=C2=A0 He's demonstrated his bona fides (mathematical= and otherwise) time and time again.=C2=A0 He's a good guy, and you = guys have cast the most outrageous aspersions against him, as if he were some kind of bigot.

Come on.=C2=A0 Get real.=C2=A0=C2=A0

David=C2=A0

On Friday, April 15, 2022 at 1:01:12 PM UTC+1 escardo...@gmail.com wro= te:
Unfortunately, this is a lose-lose situation. But I find Josh's argument below much more persuasive than mine above, and I agree with every single word. Martin

On Friday, 15 April 2022 at 10:29:41 UTC+1 Josh Chen wrote:
I find the situation unfortunate and was also very much looking forward to learning more from Mike,

But as someone who followed the events that Andrej has described from the start, with sadness I support the decision by the HoTTEST organizers to not hold the lectures immediately thereafter under the auspices of a Distinguished series.

If nothing else, I feel it would have been premature that soon, and would have worked against the goal of welcoming people of all gender presentations and identities. I am not myself trans and can thus easily afford to "tolerate" the public declaration of po= sitions that lead to worse societal outcomes for them. But this is not the case for the significant number of trans people in, and adjacent to, the HoTT community, some of whom have to actively hide this part of themselves on pain of e.g. family violence. We should think about such things when considering using hot-button phrases like "political correctness" and "cancel culture&= quot;.

I certainly look forward to hearing about Mike's (an= d Thorsten's and Ambrus's) ideas in another format or= on another occasion.

With respect and kind regards,
Josh


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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to HomotopyTypeThe...@googlegroups.= com.

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Homotopy Type Theory" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to = HomotopyTypeTheory+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.c= om/d/msgid/HomotopyTypeTheory/5595508f-15bd-42a2-a350-103647bfac1an%40googl= egroups.com.
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