Deficient thread sorting in summary view

Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[F. Durand]

Hello all,

I've switched to gnus 3 months ago, and I'm very disturbed by the way 
threads are sorted.

I've read this many times: http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_91.html

I've concluded that the state of a thread is the state of its first message. 
Thus, if you have an old thread with a new message, you won't remark it.

Freshly harvested messages should be highlighted. Actually, they are 
highlighted, with a leading dot ("."). Except if the message belongs 
to a thread that is still displayed (because one of its messages has 
been pinned or is still unread). In such case, the thread will be 
displayed at the place of the old message (i.e. far in the past) without 
the freshness mark ("."). 

In my case, either I miss some messages or, if I knew how many fresh mails 
were waiting for me thanks to another program, I loose some time looking 
for my invisible fresh mails, fail to spot them, and decide to switch to 
unthreaded view (M-C-t) where articles are sorted correctly.

Any idea ?

Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Tassilo Horn]

F. Durand <fdur559@gmail.com> writes:

Hi,

> I've switched to gnus 3 months ago, and I'm very disturbed by the way
> threads are sorted.
>
> I've read this many times: http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_91.html
>
> I've concluded that the state of a thread is the state of its first
> message.

By default, Gnus sorts threads according to the message number of its
root article.  But you can easily change that.  I use this:

(setq gnus-thread-sort-functions
      '(gnus-thread-sort-by-number
	(not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date)
	gnus-thread-sort-by-total-score))

The primary sort function is the last in the list.  Therefore, the
threads with the highest article scores in total are on top in my
summary buffers.  For threads with equal scores, I sort by the most
recent article in a thread (older before younger, thus the not).  If
that still doesn't distinguish 2 threads, it's sorted by article number
(that should always be included as last element to guarantee a total
ordering).

By the way: in mail groups (except for mailing list groups) I disable
scoring, so there the sorting by recency of youngest message in thread
is the decision maker.  I like that in older-before-younger order,
because then I read older replies to an article before younger replies.

Have a look at:

,----[ C-h v gnus-thread-sort-functions RET ]
| gnus-thread-sort-functions is a variable defined in `gnus-sum.el'.
| Its value is (gnus-thread-sort-by-number
|  (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date)
|  gnus-thread-sort-by-total-score)
| 
| Original value was 
| (gnus-thread-sort-by-number)
| 
| 
|   This variable is potentially risky when used as a file local variable.
| 
| Documentation:
| *List of functions used for sorting threads in the summary buffer.
| By default, threads are sorted by article number.
| 
| Each function takes two threads and returns non-nil if the first
| thread should be sorted before the other.  If you use more than one
| function, the primary sort function should be the last.  You should
| probably always include `gnus-thread-sort-by-number' in the list of
| sorting functions -- preferably first.  Also note that sorting by date
| is often much slower than sorting by number, and the sorting order is
| very similar.  (Sorting by date means sorting by the time the message
| was sent, sorting by number means sorting by arrival time.)
| 
| Each list item can also be a list `(not F)' where F is a
| function; this specifies reversed sort order.
| 
| Ready-made functions include `gnus-thread-sort-by-number',
| `gnus-thread-sort-by-author', `gnus-thread-sort-by-recipient'
| `gnus-thread-sort-by-subject', `gnus-thread-sort-by-date',
| `gnus-thread-sort-by-score', `gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-number',
| `gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date', `gnus-thread-sort-by-random',
| and `gnus-thread-sort-by-total-score' (see
| `gnus-thread-score-function').
| 
| When threading is turned off, the variable
| `gnus-article-sort-functions' controls how articles are sorted.
| 
| You can customize this variable.
`----

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Eric Abrahamsen]

On Wed, Jul 11 2012, Tassilo Horn wrote:

> F. Durand <fdur559@gmail.com> writes:
>
> Hi,
>
>> I've switched to gnus 3 months ago, and I'm very disturbed by the way
>> threads are sorted.
>>
>> I've read this many times: http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_91.html
>>
>> I've concluded that the state of a thread is the state of its first
>> message.
>
> By default, Gnus sorts threads according to the message number of its
> root article.  But you can easily change that.  I use this:
>
> (setq gnus-thread-sort-functions
>       '(gnus-thread-sort-by-number
> 	(not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date)
> 	gnus-thread-sort-by-total-score))
>
> The primary sort function is the last in the list.  Therefore, the
> threads with the highest article scores in total are on top in my
> summary buffers.  For threads with equal scores, I sort by the most
> recent article in a thread (older before younger, thus the not).  If
> that still doesn't distinguish 2 threads, it's sorted by article number
> (that should always be included as last element to guarantee a total
> ordering).

Okay, but this doesn't actually work as advertised… I've got:

gnus-thread-sort-functions -> ((not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))

And here's a chunk of my misc summary buffer, with bits cut out of the
from and subject fields to make it tidier:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
OA     78: 猫猫 丁           Re: A message from P     | Monday 14:37
OA    119:     猫猫 丁                                | Monday 17:54
!     375:     猫猫 丁                                | Today, 15:45
OA  41556: grace王小姐       Re: Re:晋昇-王丹丹（     | Monday 15:10
O     142:     grace王小姐                            | Today, 17:05
O     140: Publishing Perspe Let's Read Program T     | Monday 15:30
O      18: Vivian Wang       转发: Make-Do PublisNew  | Wednesday 04
O      69:     Grace         Re: Make-Do Publishiw Di | Wednesday 04
O     495:         <He.meiji                          | Monday 15:23
O     485:             Bruce Please STOP clicking     | Monday 16:28
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

So clearly it's not ordering by the latest message in a thread. The top
two threads should be way down at the bottom of the summary buffer…

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Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Tassilo Horn]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

Hi Eric,

> Okay, but this doesn't actually work as advertised… I've got:
>
> gnus-thread-sort-functions -> ((not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))

You should always include `gnus-thread-sort-by-number' in the list,
probably as first (least important) element.

> And here's a chunk of my misc summary buffer, with bits cut out of the
> from and subject fields to make it tidier:
>
> OA     78: 猫猫 丁           Re: A message from P     | Monday 14:37
> OA    119:     猫猫 丁                                | Monday 17:54
> !     375:     猫猫 丁                                | Today, 15:45
> OA  41556: grace王小姐       Re: Re:晋昇-王丹丹（     | Monday 15:10
> O     142:     grace王小姐                            | Today, 17:05
> O     140: Publishing Perspe Let's Read Program T     | Monday 15:30
> O      18: Vivian Wang       转发: Make-Do PublisNew  | Wednesday 04
> O      69:     Grace         Re: Make-Do Publishiw Di | Wednesday 04
> O     495:         <He.meiji                          | Monday 15:23
> O     485:             Bruce Please STOP clicking     | Monday 16:28
>
> So clearly it's not ordering by the latest message in a thread.  The
> top two threads should be way down at the bottom of the summary
> buffer…

Sorry, from that "screenshot" I cannot even determine which messages
belong to one thread.  I think the first 3, then the next 2, then 1,
then 4, right?

In that case, the two first threads should be below the others...  I
checked in some mail group here, and for me it works just fine.  Here is
an "anonymized screenshot":

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
R ┃  ┃-> xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx┃ ● Musterlösung Metamodell/Objektdiagramm Feature-Diagramme <June 26>
OA┃  ┃xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ┃ ╰─❯  <June 26>
O ┃  ┃-> xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx┃  ╰─❯  <June 26>
O ┃  ┃xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ┃   ╰─❯  <June 26>
OA┃  ┃xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx    ┃ ● Exposé zur Masterarbeit <June 20>
O ┃  ┃-> xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx ┃ ╰─❯  <June 26>
O ┃  ┃-> xxxxxx xxxxx        ┃ ❯ 8. GST-Aufgabe <June 26>
OA┃  ┃-> xxxxxx xxxxx        ┃ ● Clojure Intro <June 22>
O ┃  ┃-> Tassilo Horn        ┃ ├─❯  <June 26>
O ┃  ┃-> Tassilo Horn        ┃ ╰─❯  <June 26>
OA┃  ┃xxxxxx xxxxx           ┃ ● schließen/löschen des greqlrenovation-Branches <June 27>
O ┃  ┃-> xxxxxx xxxxx        ┃ ╰─❯  <June 27>
OA┃  ┃-> xxxx xxxxxxx        ┃ ● Musterlösung vom Issue-Tracker <June 26>
O ┃  ┃-> Tassilo Horn        ┃ ├─❯  <June 26>
O ┃  ┃-> Tassilo Horn        ┃ ├─❯  <June 26>
OA┃  ┃xxxxxxx xxxx           ┃ ╰─❯  <June 28>
O ┃  ┃-> xxxxxxx xxxx        ┃  ╰─❯  <June 28>
OA┃  ┃xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx    ┃ ● ASP <June 28>
O ┃  ┃-> xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx ┃ ╰─❯  <June 28>
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Bye,
Tassilo


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Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Eric Abrahamsen]

On Wed, Jul 11 2012, Tassilo Horn wrote:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
> Hi Eric,
>
>> Okay, but this doesn't actually work as advertised… I've got:
>>
>> gnus-thread-sort-functions -> ((not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))
>
> You should always include `gnus-thread-sort-by-number' in the list,
> probably as first (least important) element.

Okay, I added that in, but it didn't make any difference. I eval
gnus-thread-sort-function:

(gnus-thread-sort-by-number (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))

That's what it gives me.

> Sorry, from that "screenshot" I cannot even determine which messages
> belong to one thread.  I think the first 3, then the next 2, then 1,
> then 4, right?

Sorry, should have been clearer, but your interpretation is quite
correct. This sorting remains the same even with the above change to
`gnus-thread-sort-by-number'.

> In that case, the two first threads should be below the others...  I
> checked in some mail group here, and for me it works just fine.

Mine doesn't look like yours! The only other thread-related
customization I've got is:

(setq gnus-summary-thread-gathering-function
  'gnus-gather-threads-by-references)

Would that make any difference?

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Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Tassilo Horn]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Okay, I added that in, but it didn't make any difference. I eval
> gnus-thread-sort-function:
>
> (gnus-thread-sort-by-number (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))
>
> That's what it gives me.

Strange, I'm running today's git gnus, but it has worked for me for
years.

>> In that case, the two first threads should be below the others...  I
>> checked in some mail group here, and for me it works just fine.
>
> Mine doesn't look like yours! The only other thread-related
> customization I've got is:
>
> (setq gnus-summary-thread-gathering-function
>   'gnus-gather-threads-by-references)
>
> Would that make any difference?

No, I have the same.

Is there a chance that you've set a different sorting strategy in the
group you used for testing (e.g., as a group parameter which might end
up in ~/.newsrc.eld)?  What does `C-h v gnus-thread-sort-functions' in
that wrongly sorted summary tell?

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Eric Abrahamsen]

On Thu, Jul 12 2012, Tassilo Horn wrote:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> Okay, I added that in, but it didn't make any difference. I eval
>> gnus-thread-sort-function:
>>
>> (gnus-thread-sort-by-number (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))
>>
>> That's what it gives me.
>
> Strange, I'm running today's git gnus, but it has worked for me for
> years.
>
>>> In that case, the two first threads should be below the others...  I
>>> checked in some mail group here, and for me it works just fine.
>>
>> Mine doesn't look like yours! The only other thread-related
>> customization I've got is:
>>
>> (setq gnus-summary-thread-gathering-function
>>   'gnus-gather-threads-by-references)
>>
>> Would that make any difference?
>
> No, I have the same.
>
> Is there a chance that you've set a different sorting strategy in the
> group you used for testing (e.g., as a group parameter which might end
> up in ~/.newsrc.eld)?  What does `C-h v gnus-thread-sort-functions' in
> that wrongly sorted summary tell?

It's the same thing there… I really don't think I've customized anything
else.

I've also got:

gnus-sort-gathered-threads-function -> gnus-thread-sort-by-date

Which I'd think was correct.

If no one else sees this it must be something I did, but I can't imagine what!

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Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Damien Wyart]

* Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> in gnu.emacs.gnus:
> I've also got:

> gnus-sort-gathered-threads-function -> gnus-thread-sort-by-date

> Which I'd think was correct.
> If no one else sees this it must be something I did, but I can't imagine what!

The default value for this one is gnus-thread-sort-by-number; could you
check that your .gnus.el is modifying it and try to comment this
modification?

-- 
DW

Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Tassilo Horn]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

>> Is there a chance that you've set a different sorting strategy in the
>> group you used for testing (e.g., as a group parameter which might
>> end up in ~/.newsrc.eld)?  What does `C-h v
>> gnus-thread-sort-functions' in that wrongly sorted summary tell?
>
> It's the same thing there… I really don't think I've customized
> anything else.
>
> I've also got:
>
> gnus-sort-gathered-threads-function -> gnus-thread-sort-by-date
>
> Which I'd think was correct.

Ok, here I have the default value `gnus-thread-sort-by-number'.  But
judging from its docs, that should't make a difference with respect to
the sorting between two different threads.  However, you still might
want to try that out.  It could be possible that some summary sorting
code accidentally uses the wrong variable to get the sorting function,
and since nobody customized `gnus-sort-gathered-threads-function' except
for you, it never attracted attention...  (Well, unlikely, but go
ahead.)

Bye,
Tassilo


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Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Eric Abrahamsen]

On Thu, Jul 12 2012, Tassilo Horn wrote:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>>> Is there a chance that you've set a different sorting strategy in the
>>> group you used for testing (e.g., as a group parameter which might
>>> end up in ~/.newsrc.eld)?  What does `C-h v
>>> gnus-thread-sort-functions' in that wrongly sorted summary tell?
>>
>> It's the same thing there… I really don't think I've customized
>> anything else.
>>
>> I've also got:
>>
>> gnus-sort-gathered-threads-function -> gnus-thread-sort-by-date
>>
>> Which I'd think was correct.
>
> Ok, here I have the default value `gnus-thread-sort-by-number'.  But
> judging from its docs, that should't make a difference with respect to
> the sorting between two different threads.  However, you still might
> want to try that out.  It could be possible that some summary sorting
> code accidentally uses the wrong variable to get the sorting function,
> and since nobody customized `gnus-sort-gathered-threads-function' except
> for you, it never attracted attention...  (Well, unlikely, but go
> ahead.)

I figured it out! Well, nearly (`gnus-sort-gathered-threads-function'
wasn't the problem).

I used the customize interface to set `gnus-thread-sort-functions', and
it worked exactly as advertised. Now the remaining, minor mystery is,
what's the difference between this in my .emacs:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(custom-set-variables
 '(gnus-thread-sort-functions
  (quote (gnus-thread-sort-by-number
  (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

and this in my gnus.el:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(setq gnus-thread-sort-functions '(gnus-thread-sort-by-number
      (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date)))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Anyway, that 80% of the problem solved.

Thanks,
Eric

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Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Tassilo Horn]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

Hi Eric,

> Now the remaining, minor mystery is, what's the difference between
> this in my .emacs:
>
> (custom-set-variables
>  '(gnus-thread-sort-functions
>   (quote (gnus-thread-sort-by-number
>   (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))))
>
> and this in my gnus.el:
>
> (setq gnus-thread-sort-functions '(gnus-thread-sort-by-number
>       (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date)))

There is no difference.  So you say it didn't work with the setq version
in ~/.gnus.el but it works now with the setq removed and instead using
the customize version?

That's really puzzling me...

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Eric Abrahamsen]

On Thu, Jul 12 2012, Tassilo Horn wrote:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
> Hi Eric,
>
>> Now the remaining, minor mystery is, what's the difference between
>> this in my .emacs:
>>
>> (custom-set-variables
>>  '(gnus-thread-sort-functions
>>   (quote (gnus-thread-sort-by-number
>>   (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))))
>>
>> and this in my gnus.el:
>>
>> (setq gnus-thread-sort-functions '(gnus-thread-sort-by-number
>>       (not gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date)))

No, I'm an idiot. It was a red herring -- looking at the wrong groups at
the wrong time. The actual problem seems to be that thread sorting works
correctly in all groups except my "mail.*" groups. Works right in
nnmairix groups and my nntp groups, but not mail.anything.

I've lost my confidence here, though -- unless the above rings any
bells, let me stare at it for a day or so in case I'm still interpreting
things incorrectly.

Thanks and apologies,

E

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Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Tassilo Horn]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

Hi Eric,

> No, I'm an idiot. It was a red herring -- looking at the wrong groups
> at the wrong time. The actual problem seems to be that thread sorting
> works correctly in all groups except my "mail.*" groups. Works right
> in nnmairix groups and my nntp groups, but not mail.anything.

I think, Gnus doesn't do anything different when sorting mail summaries
or other summaries.  The only explanation I can think of is that you've
set Group or Topic Parameters overriding some sorting variables for a
certain set of groups.

Depending on how you've customized them, the settings could be either in
your ~/.emacs, your ~/.gnus.el, or in ~/.newsrc.eld.  Could you please
grep those files for "sort"?

Well, you already told us that `C-h v gnus-thread-sort-functions' inside
a summary buffer had the correct value.  But were you completely sure
that you did that in one of your mail.* group where the sorting is not
as you like?

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Dan Christensen]

I suspect the problem is one that I've discussed with Lars before:  
when threads are gathered, this messes up the sorting that was done
previously.  I think that gathering should be done before sorting,
but there are technical details that would have to be figured out
in order to do that.  See the thread that begins with:

  http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.gnus.general/78745/focus=79015

Dan

Re: Deficient thread sorting in summary view

[Damien Wyart]

* F. Durand <fdur559@gmail.com> in gnu.emacs.gnus:
> I've concluded that the state of a thread is the state of its first message. 
> Thus, if you have an old thread with a new message, you won't remark it.

It depends on the sorting function you choose... I am using this setting
(for mails; for news I combine date and score) and it works fine:

   (setq gnus-thread-sort-functions
                 '(gnus-thread-sort-by-most-recent-date))

-- 
DW