gnus scoring insanity

gnus scoring insanity

[notbob]

Been using gnus for newsgroups for a couple weeks.  I really like it
and while I wish for some functions like slrn, the bennies far
outweigh the downside ....with one exception!

What's the deal with scoring for newsgroups?  I've read half the gnus
Scoring section and understand none of it.  Man pages are child's play in
comparison to the doubletalk that is the gnus manual.  To wit:

"The current score file is by default the group's local score file,
even if no such score file actually exists. To insert score commands
into some other score file (e.g. `all.SCORE'), you must first make
this score file the current one."

Huh!?  Can we please speak-a da English?

Where are the score files?  How many score files are there?  For some
reason these subjects seem to be of no consequence.  I've yet to find
a single one, even with slocate (score, Score, SCORE).  

What is an alist?  I googled for alist and got a reference to  it
in the Emacs Lisp Manual.  Why is it there?  I haven't a clue on how
to write lisp code yet.  The ref states:

"An "association list" or "alist" is a specially-constructed list
whose elements are cons cells(?).  In each element, the CAR(?) is considered
a "key"(?), and the CDR(?) is considered an "associated value".  (In some
cases, the associated value is stored in the CAR of the CDR.)...."

??????? --freaking-- ?????????????????!!!!

Well crap!  That certainly clears everything up.  NOT!  Is the alist a
score file.  Is it named some variation of "score"?  Like a file named
score, I find no file named alist.  Grrrr...

I've tried L a s p (found this function from google) from the summary
buffer.  Cool.  I chose to "lower" a person by "From:" (I want the
twit killed!).  Went through prompts and thought everyting ok.  No
errors.  I closed gnus, and even emacs.  Came back and nada.  The
person is still visible.  Still can't find any new score file via
slocate (yes, I updated database).

Geez, gnus is hard enough.  Could it be made any harder by talking in
circles and using proprietary terms without defining them?  Anyone
know of a gnus scoring tutorial for complete moron newbies like
myself?  And yes, I WILL write a better howto if ever I can figure
scoring out in the first place.

Thanks for any help.

nb  --no hair to tear 

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:13:03 -0600, notbob@bb.nothome.com wrote:

> What's the deal with scoring for newsgroups?

It seems it is the same deal as with all the other things you are
complaining about.

I use scoring very simply: To not see articles from people I've becomed
tired of.

To this purpose, I have a single file, called ~/News/all.SCORE, which
contains this¹:

  (
   ("from"
    ("Someone I Do Not Care To Read At All <someone@example.com>" -10000 nil e)
    ("Someone I Just Want To Skip Most Of The Time <someoneelse@example.com>" -5000 nil e))
  )

So, what does this tell Gnus?

If the from-line matches "Someone I Do Not Care To Read At All
<someone@example.com>" exactly, lower the score by 10000. This means
that I will never see the article (because I've set the variable
gnus-summary-expunge-below to -9999.) 

If it exactly matches "Someone I Just Want To Skip Most Of The Time
<someoneelse@example.com>", the score is lowered by 5000, and the
article is showed less prominently and skipped when I ask for the next
unread article.

There is a quite thorough example and explanation of the format in the
manual:

 * http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_266.html#SEC266

But I guess that was in the half you skipped.

> "The current score file is by default the group's local score file,
> even if no such score file actually exists. To insert score commands
> into some other score file (e.g. `all.SCORE'), you must first make
> this score file the current one."

> Huh!?  Can we please speak-a da English?

Which part of that paragraph is unclear to you?

(Not all Gnus users and developers are native english speakers, so
please do excuse us, and suggest improvements to the language.)

> Where are the score files?

In ~/News/, unless you ask Gnus to put them somewhere else (by setting
gnus-kill-files-directory²).

> How many score files are there?

As many as you'd like. More than number of newsgroups+1 may be silly,
though. I only have ~/News/all.SCORE, but my scoring needs are very low.

> For some reason these subjects seem to be of no consequence.

They were probably obvious to the author at the time.

> What is an alist?

They are close to what is also called "dictionaries" or "hashes" in
other languages (Python, Perl).

> I googled for alist and got a reference to it in the Emacs Lisp
> Manual. Why is it there?

In the Emacs Lisp Manual? Because it is one of the concepts used in
Emacs Lisp?

> I haven't a clue on how to write lisp code yet.

It isn't required beforehand knowledge, but it's hard not to pick up a
little along the way... :-)

> Geez, gnus is hard enough.  Could it be made any harder by talking in
> circles and using proprietary terms without defining them?

Which terms are the ones you consider 'proprietary'?!


  Best regards,

    Adam


¹ Abbreviated for pedagogical purposes
² http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_265.html#SEC265

-- 
 "They were trying to make me an insider to some kind         Adam Sjøgren
  of trip they were on. I don't think so."               asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[harven]

notbob@bb.nothome.com writes:

> Geez, gnus is hard enough.  Could it be made any harder by talking in
> circles and using proprietary terms without defining them?  Anyone
> know of a gnus scoring tutorial for complete moron newbies like
> myself?  And yes, I WILL write a better howto if ever I can figure
> scoring out in the first place.
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> nb  --no hair to tear 

The emacs wiki often provides examples and tutorials on many subjects
related to emacs. And of course you can add to it. Have a look at
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-en/ScoreFile
Hope that helps

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[Glyn Millington]

notbob@bb.nothome.com writes:

> Been using gnus for newsgroups for a couple weeks.  I really like it
> and while I wish for some functions like slrn, the bennies far
> outweigh the downside ....with one exception!
>
> What's the deal with scoring for newsgroups?  I've read half the gnus
> Scoring section and understand none of it.  Man pages are child's play in
> comparison to the doubletalk that is the gnus manual.  To wit:
>
> "The current score file is by default the group's local score file,
> even if no such score file actually exists. To insert score commands
> into some other score file (e.g. `all.SCORE'), you must first make
> this score file the current one."
>
> Huh!?  Can we please speak-a da English?

Hi nb,

You have to realise that in starting to use Gnus you are entering a
world of mystery and magic, a world that responds to thoughtful
contemplation and intelligent enquiry :-)

Here is some snippage form my .gnus file with comments - the real;
experts here will point out the mistakes :-)

The one to get rid of articles you don't like is
gnus-summary-expunge-below - see below.


;,----
;| Scoring
;`----

 ;:*=======================

; SCORING - the central score file. Gnus wil populate your ~/News
; directory with lots of score files unless you tell it not to.  I prefer
; having all this stuff in one file ....
(setq gnus-home-score-file
      "/home/glyn/News/all.SCORE")

;;1. Adaptive scoring: Gnus KNOWS what you like to read!


;;* Scoring away  boring stuff.

(setq   gnus-use-adaptive-scoring t)
(defvar gnus-default-adaptive-score-alist
  '((gnus-unread-mark)
    (gnus-ticked-mark (from 4))
    (gnus-dormant-mark (from 5))
    (gnus-del-mark (from -4) (subject -1))
    (gnus-read-mark (from 1) (subject 1))
    (gnus-expirable-mark (from -1) (subject -1))
    (gnus-killed-mark (from -1) (subject -3))
    (gnus-kill-file-mark (from -999))
    (gnus-ancient-mark (subject -1))
    (gnus-low-score-mark (subject -1))
    (gnus-catchup-mark (subject -1))
    )
   )

;; Some extra headers for scoring purposes.

(setq gnus-extra-headers '(Organization Newsgroups Keywords)
      nnmail-extra-headers gnus-extra-headers)

;; This one is a beauty - articles with a lower score than this will
;; not be shown in the summary buffer.

(setq gnus-summary-expunge-below -999)

Hope that helps get you started


atb


Glyn

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[notbob]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:


> It seems it is the same deal as with all the other things you are
> complaining about.

I prefer to think of 'em as salty observations.  

> I use scoring very simply: To not see articles from people I've becomed
> tired of.

Feel free to include me.  

> To this purpose, I have a single file, called ~/News/all.SCORE, which
> contains this¹:

Interesting.  Was I supposed to manually create the all.SCORE file?  If
so, this has become a major issue, it not being a first time I've
created necessary files.  Problem is, I've yet to find one word of
instruction in the gnus manual that I should create any files and what
and where those files should be named/located.    


>   (
>    ("from"
>     ("Someone I Do Not Care To Read At All <someone@example.com>" -10000 nil e)
>     ("Someone I Just Want To Skip Most Of The Time <someoneelse@example.com>" -5000 nil e))
>   )

[...]


> There is a quite thorough example and explanation of the format in the
> manual:

>  * http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_266.html#SEC266

I saved the above info.  Thank you.

> But I guess that was in the half you skipped.

Oooh... you can be a bit salty too.  ;)

>> "The current score file is by default the group's local score file,
>> even if no such score file actually exists. To insert score commands
>> into some other score file (e.g. `all.SCORE'), you must first make
>> this score file the current one."

> Which part of that paragraph is unclear to you?

All of it!  What current score file?  Does it have an actual name and
location?  Does gnus create it or am I supposed to guess about that
issue again?  If I am, I need to know the file name to create and
where.  I don't.  Same questions for the local score file.  "some other
score file"?  I don't want possible examples, I need concrete information.
Last but not least, what is "this" score file?  

The whole paragraph is useless.  Near as I can tell, some unnamed
default score file is actually some other unnamed score file, EVEN IF
NO SUCH SCORE FILE EXISTS!!  That's a killer, that one.  Lastly, to
insert commands into SOME OTHER(!) unnamed score file, you must first
make THIS OTHER SCORE FILE (????) "the current one".  Who's on first!?

> (Not all Gnus users and developers are native english speakers, so
> please do excuse us, and suggest improvements to the language.)

Soon as I get it figured out, I'll try, so help me god.

>> Where are the score files?

> In ~/News/, unless you ask Gnus to put them somewhere else (by setting
> gnus-kill-files-directory²).

I'll hafta do that, as that exact same file name and dir is used by
slrn, which I still have in case I lose my gnus mind.

> They were probably obvious to the author at the time.

Or they were on drugs.  ;)

> It isn't required beforehand knowledge, but it's hard not to pick up a
> little along the way... :-)

I've stuck my toe in the proverbial water.  Got some lisp code
snippets pasted in my ~/.emacs file.  Not intimidated by it, just
trying to ingest the big pieces of emacs before I start nibbling the
little ones.

> Which terms are the ones you consider 'proprietary'?!

All the ones having to do with emacs which I don't know the meaning of.

Don't take my rants personally.  I sometimes get frustrated, but still
slog on.

nb

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[Tassilo Horn]

notbob@bb.nothome.com writes:

Hi!

> Interesting.  Was I supposed to manually create the all.SCORE file?

You can, but there's interactive support for that, too.  When reading
some very interesting article hit `I', if it's stupid hit `D'
(increase/decrease score) and some scoring wizard will ask you on what
to score.

I mostly use adaptive scoring.

,----[ (info "(gnus)Adaptive Scoring") ]
| If all this scoring is getting you down, Gnus has a way of making it all
| happen automatically--as if by magic.  Or rather, as if by artificial
| stupidity, to be precise.
`----

Basically that means, that subthreads of articles that I read or tick
for later reading get their scores increased automatically, threads I
don't read get their score lowered.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[Vagn Johansen]

notbob@bb.nothome.com writes:

> Interesting.  Was I supposed to manually create the all.SCORE file?  

No 

> If so, this has become a major issue, it not being a first time I've
> created necessary files.  Problem is, I've yet to find one word of
> instruction in the gnus manual that I should create any files and
> what and where those files should be named/located.

Go to the gnus manual (C-h i d m gnus RET)

Find the chapter "Scoring". The first subsection is "Summary Score
Commands" which shows what you need to get started: L and I

These give you an interactive way of creating scoring entries for the
current group (use for ? for help).

if you later want to edit the generated SCORE file you use "V e"


http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_263.html#SEC263

-- 
Vagn Johansen
Evalesco A/S

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[Tassilo Horn]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

Hi again!

> You can, but there's interactive support for that, too.  When reading
> some very interesting article hit `I', if it's stupid hit `D'
> (increase/decrease score) and some scoring wizard will ask you on what
> to score.

Ups, the keys are `I' and `D' for increase/lower. ;-)

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[Memnon Anon]

notbob@bb.nothome.com writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>> They were probably obvious to the author at the time.
> Or they were on drugs.  ;)

I think its time to quote the manual

,----[ (info "(gnus)On Writing Manuals") ]
|    This, of course, means that this manual has no, or little, flow.  It
| documents absolutely everything in Gnus, but often not where you're
| looking for it.  It is a reference manual, and not a guide to how to get
| started with Gnus.
| 
|    That would be a totally different book, that should be written using
| the reference manual as source material.  It would look quite different.
`----

>> Which terms are the ones you consider 'proprietary'?!
> All the ones having to do with emacs which I don't know the meaning of.
> Don't take my rants personally.  I sometimes get frustrated, but still
> slog on.

So if you stay with it, maybe you are the right one to write that
'different book' ;).

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[notbob]

Memnon Anon <gegendosenfleisch@gmail.com> writes:


> So if you stay with it, maybe you are the right one to write that
> 'different book' ;).

I would like to.  I've been using linux for seven years and learning
gnus has been about the most difficult hurdle I've encountered.  slrn
is so much easier.  I can see why it's more popular.  OTOH, some gnus
functions just blow slrn out of the water.  That, and I think John D
has let some things slide.  M-f/b hasn't worked in jed for the last
couple revs.

Though I've lost a few functions from slrn, I'm sure they're available
in gnus.  I just need to rediscover 'em.  Plus, some of the native
functions gnus has, like keeping attribute markers correct when
reformating a paragraph (Esc-q) is brilliant.  Being a rabid reply
trimmer, that alone was enough to turn me to gnus.  ;)

nb

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:45:08 -0600, notbob@bb.nothome.com wrote:

>> I use scoring very simply: To not see articles from people I've becomed
>> tired of.

> Feel free to include me.  

I thought about using you as the example, but decided against it. Apart
from your tone of voice, your input is valuable, I think.

>> To this purpose, I have a single file, called ~/News/all.SCORE, which
>> contains this¹:

> Interesting.  Was I supposed to manually create the all.SCORE file?

You seemed not to like to use the commands in Gnus, so I described how I
use it. There is more than one way to do it.

> If so, this has become a major issue, it not being a first time I've
> created necessary files. Problem is, I've yet to find one word of
> instruction in the gnus manual that I should create any files and what
> and where those files should be named/located.

You can if you want to - if you don't you can use the commands listed in
the manual.

>> But I guess that was in the half you skipped.

> Oooh... you can be a bit salty too.  ;)

;-)

>>> "The current score file is by default the group's local score file,
>>> even if no such score file actually exists. To insert score commands
>>> into some other score file (e.g. `all.SCORE'), you must first make
>>> this score file the current one."

>> Which part of that paragraph is unclear to you?

> All of it!  What current score file?

The score file that is currently in use, is how I interpret it.

> Does it have an actual name and location?

That depends on whether it exists, as it says above. If it doesn't, it
doesn't have a name and location until created.

> Does gnus create it or am I supposed to guess about that issue again?

Depends on what you want, I guess.

> If I am, I need to know the file name to create and where. I don't. 

So, use the commands in the manual.

> Same questions for the local score file. "some other score file"? I
> don't want possible examples, I need concrete information. Last but
> not least, what is "this" score file?

Some other score file you want the score commands inserted into rather
than the current, whether it exists or not.

> The whole paragraph is useless.

That's a very broad statement. To you, yes. To me, it kind of almost
makes sense.

> Near as I can tell, some unnamed default score file is actually some
> other unnamed score file, EVEN IF NO SUCH SCORE FILE EXISTS!! That's a
> killer, that one. Lastly, to insert commands into SOME OTHER(!) 
> unnamed score file, you must first make THIS OTHER SCORE FILE (????) 
> "the current one". Who's on first!?

Reference manuals are boring to write. I think it's okay to inject some
fun into it.

>> In ~/News/, unless you ask Gnus to put them somewhere else (by setting
>> gnus-kill-files-directory²).

> I'll hafta do that, as that exact same file name and dir is used by
> slrn, which I still have in case I lose my gnus mind.

If it confuses slrn then, yeah, better move them.

>> They were probably obvious to the author at the time.

> Or they were on drugs.  ;)

Written many reference manuals, have you? :-)

>> Which terms are the ones you consider 'proprietary'?!

> All the ones having to do with emacs which I don't know the meaning of.

What does 'proprietary' signify in that context?

> Don't take my rants personally.  I sometimes get frustrated, but still
> slog on.

Ditto. I'm sure you would get less annoying replies if you wrote less
annoying rants.


    ;-),

     Adam

-- 
 "They were trying to make me an insider to some kind         Adam Sjøgren
  of trip they were on. I don't think so."               asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[notbob]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:45:08 -0600, notbob@bb.nothome.com wrote:

> You can if you want to - if you don't you can use the commands listed in
> the manual.

Here's an amazing fact.  Of all the commands I've learned and
currently use in gnus, not a single one of them have I found in the
manual.  


>> All of it!  What current score file?
>
> The score file that is currently in use, is how I interpret it.
>
>> Does it have an actual name and location?
>
> That depends on whether it exists, as it says above. If it doesn't, it
> doesn't have a name and location until created.
>
>> Does gnus create it or am I supposed to guess about that issue again?
>
> Depends on what you want, I guess.
>
>> If I am, I need to know the file name to create and where. I don't. 
>
> So, use the commands in the manual.

Who's on first!  

Tell me true.  Did you write this manual?  ;)

> ..... it kind of almost makes sense.

That's reassuring, almost.

> Written many reference manuals, have you? :-)

Surprisingly, I have, and I know garbage when I read it.  That paragraph
is absurd.  It reads like it was written by someone in la-la land and
conveys no useable information.
  
> Ditto. I'm sure you would get less annoying replies if you wrote less
> annoying rants.

no doubt.  ;)

nb

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:37:49 -0600, notbob@bb.nothome.com wrote:

>> ..... it kind of almost makes sense.

> That's reassuring, almost.

Exactly.

(If you can't hear the tongue-in-cheek in that paragraph, you must be
needin' a hearing aid.)

>> Written many reference manuals, have you? :-)

> Surprisingly, I have, and I know garbage when I read it.

That's totally cool! Now you have two alternatives:

 * Bitch and moan, yielding at best overbearing replies, at worst
   sarcastic and unconstructively sullen replies (those would be mine).

 * Find out what the manual should have said, and contribute it.

And since you have a) a lot of experience, and b) know how to
differentiate between garbage and good, you are the perfect person to
start fixing this problem you've come upon.

Get crackin'!

> That paragraph is absurd.

And what makes you think that wasn't intentional?

> It reads like it was written by someone in la-la land and conveys no
> useable information.

I'm sure the author of said paragraph will be happy to give you a full
refund :-)


  Best regards,

     Adam

-- 
 "We get our thursdays from a banana."                        Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk

Gnus info printable version (was: gnus scoring insanity)

[William Xu]

Memnon Anon <gegendosenfleisch@gmail.com> writes:

> I think its time to quote the manual
>
> ,----[ (info "(gnus)On Writing Manuals") ]
> |    This, of course, means that this manual has no, or little, flow.  It
> | documents absolutely everything in Gnus, but often not where you're
> | looking for it.  It is a reference manual, and not a guide to how to get
> | started with Gnus.
> | 
> |    That would be a totally different book, that should be written using
> | the reference manual as source material.  It would look quite different.
> `----

I love this Gnus reference, so much fun reading it.  This quotation,
which I haven't come across, proves it again.  It is simply too huge to
finish the whole.  Does anybody try to print the whole Gnus info? How
many pages are there? 

-- 
William

http://xwl.appspot.com

Re: Gnus info printable version

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:28:10 +0300, William wrote:

> Does anybody try to print the whole Gnus info? How many pages are
> there?

I haven't printed it, but the A4 PDF-version here:

 * http://gnus.org/manual.html

is 520 pages.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "I'm a driver, I'm a winner, things are gonna change,        Adam Sjøgren
  I can feel it."                                        asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: gnus scoring insanity

[giglio robbo' d'acciaio]

Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:

> Tassilo Horn <tassilo@member.fsf.org> writes:
>
> Hi again!
>
>> You can, but there's interactive support for that, too.  When reading
>> some very interesting article hit `I', if it's stupid hit `D'
>> (increase/decrease score) and some scoring wizard will ask you on what
>> to score.
>
> Ups, the keys are `I' and `D' for increase/lower. ;-)

'L' for _l_ower
-- 
      Daniele Giglio      Dona i tuoi cicli di clock alla ricerca!
                          http://boinc.berkeley.edu/
                          --------------------
           This signature was automatically generated with
           Signify v1.14.  For this and other cool products,
           check out http://www.debian.org/

Re: Gnus info printable version

[Reiner Steib]

On Fri, Jun 19 2009, William Xu wrote:

> I love this Gnus reference, so much fun reading it.  This quotation,
> which I haven't come across, proves it again.  It is simply too huge to
> finish the whole.  Does anybody try to print the whole Gnus info? How
> many pages are there? 

The manual has approximately 400 pages.  You can build the manuals
using "make dvi" or "make pdf" in the "texi/" directory of the
distribution.

There's also <http://www.gnus.org/manual.html>, but it corresponds to
Gnus 5.10.2.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/