Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Emanuel Berg]

Alberto Luaces <aluaces@udc.es> writes:

> this could be more of an elisp question rather than
> a gnus question

Well, Gnus is Elisp so that should be OK.

> Once I have gnus up and running, I want to modify my
> nnimap-split-fancy variable. Therefore, I evaluate a
> sexp with the new values, and change .gnus.el
> accordingly for future sessions. All works ok.
>
> When I quit gnus *without quitting* emacs, and then
> restart gnus again, nnimap-split-fancy stays with
> its initial value. Maybe it is no surprise that it
> is not reading .gnus.el again, but I wonder why my
> on-the-fly settings were also dropped.

What do you have as `gnus-init-file'? Do you really
have ~/.gnus.el and not plain ~/.gnus?

It says in the help - 

    If a file with the `.el' or `.elc' suffixes
    exists, it will be read instead.

- so make sure there isn't any interference from other
files.

If you got that right, it gets worse. I don't have
"nnimap-split-fancy" so I can't confirm this, but in
principle you are not doing anything wrong. ~/.gnus
(or .el, or .elc) is read by Gnus on startup (i.e.,
Gnus and not Emacs startup) - you should be able to
verify this by putting for example

    (message "Gnus is starting")

in ~/.gnus (...) and then kill the *Group* buffer and
do (gnus). Then check the *Messages* if the message is
there.

If it doesn't show up it may be you have compiled the
file so Gnus uses that instead. In that case you
should recompile the file with the changes. Even so,
that should be the same situation when you restart
Emacs, so that shouldn't "help".

And: have you checked all other init files there is no
other mention of "nnimap-split-fancy"?

-- 
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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Alberto Luaces]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> And: have you checked all other init files there is no
> other mention of "nnimap-split-fancy"?

Hi Emanuel,

I really do not want to restart emacs, so I did this instead: quit gnus,
open another emacs program, and start gnus from there.

The result is that nnimap-split-fancy is set as instructed in my
~/.gnus.el.

So I guess it is demonstrated that this is the relevant (or even the
only) definition in my configuration files.

The mystery remains, though — why is gnus not reloading .gnus.el, and
where is it storing the initial values so it is overwriting my own?

-- 
Alberto


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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Emanuel Berg]

Alberto Luaces <aluaces@udc.es> writes:

> The mystery remains, though — why is gnus not
> reloading .gnus.el, and where is it storing the
> initial values so it is overwriting my own?

Again, did you check out `gnus-init-file'? What does
it say? Evaluate any of these lines to find out:

    gnus-init-file
    (describe-variable 'gnus-init-file)

Also, what do you mean when you say you "quit Gnus"?

Here are three ways:

    http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Exiting-Gnus.html

    or evaluate: (info "(Gnus)Exiting Gnus")

`gnus-group-quit' and probably best `gnus-group-exit'
should be fine, but not `gnus-group-suspend'. Killing
the *Group* buffer should be fine, but that isn't
mentioned (there) so perhaps that should be avoided.
You can confirm Gnus is killed with (gnus-alive-p)
before you restart it with `gnus'.

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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Alberto Luaces]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Alberto Luaces <aluaces@udc.es> writes:
>
>> The mystery remains, though — why is gnus not
>> reloading .gnus.el, and where is it storing the
>> initial values so it is overwriting my own?
>
> Again, did you check out `gnus-init-file'? What does
> it say? Evaluate any of these lines to find out:
>
>     gnus-init-file
>     (describe-variable 'gnus-init-file)

It says "~/.gnus".

>
>
> Also, what do you mean when you say you "quit Gnus"?
>

Pressing q on the Groups buffer, that is gnus-group-exit.

(gnus-alive-p) returns t.

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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Adam Sjøgren]

Alberto Luaces writes:

> Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

>> Also, what do you mean when you say you "quit Gnus"?

> Pressing q on the Groups buffer, that is gnus-group-exit.

> (gnus-alive-p) returns t.

In my Emacs (gnus-alive-p) returns nil after I have pressed q in the
*Group* buffer.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
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  With unhealthy gums                                    asjo@koldfront.dk
  It's hard to keep your head above the ground"


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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Emanuel Berg]

Alberto Luaces <aluaces@udc.es> writes:

>> Again, did you check out `gnus-init-file'? What
>> does it say? Evaluate any of these lines to find
>> out: gnus-init-file (describe-variable
>> 'gnus-init-file)
>
> It says "~/.gnus".

OK, which you don't have?

And you don't load .gnus.el explicitly, e.g., in
.emacs, for example with `load-library' or
`load-file'?

>> Also, what do you mean when you say you "quit
>> Gnus"?
>
> Pressing q on the Groups buffer, that is
> gnus-group-exit.
>
> (gnus-alive-p) returns t.

I have never heard of "Emacs server variables" and
there isn't anything in the documentation of `defvar'
that even remotely touches upon that (the confusing
part which shouldn't relate is the lexical vs. dynamic
scope which has basically to do with `let' clauses -
in lexical, if you do a `let', then value-key
replacement are only in effect in that particular
clause, and not in code invoked from it, where the
same key - if present - will be left alone). Anyway,
if the variable was defined with `defvar' it shouldn't
be a problem because that interface is simple:

    (defvar SYMBOL &optional INITVALUE DOCSTRING)

    ... The optional argument INITVALUE is evaluated,
    and used to set SYMBOL, only if SYMBOL's value is
    void.

However, if the variable is defined with `defcustom' -
which makes it a so-called user variable - it says

    (defcustom SYMBOL STANDARD DOC &rest ARGS)

    STANDARD is an expression specifying the
    variable's standard value. It should not be
    quoted. It is evaluated once by `defcustom', and
    the value is assigned to SYMBOL if the variable is
    unbound. The expression itself is also stored, so
    that Customize can re-evaluate it later to get the
    standard value.

Do you do anything that would provoke Customize to
re-evaluate the standard value? (By the way, what
value does it have before and after you exit Gnus?)

-- 
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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>> (gnus-alive-p) returns t.
>
> In my Emacs (gnus-alive-p) returns nil after I have
> pressed q in the *Group* buffer.

Then that's it. The OP's Gnus isn't terminated, so
when he does M-x gnus RET that just brings forward the
same instance of Gnus, and there is no need to
reinitialize (i.e., to read the ~/.gnus family of
files).

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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Adam Sjøgren]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>>> (gnus-alive-p) returns t.

>> In my Emacs (gnus-alive-p) returns nil after I have pressed q in the
>> *Group* buffer.

> Then that's it. The OP's Gnus isn't terminated, so when he does M-x
> gnus RET that just brings forward the same instance of Gnus, and there
> is no need to reinitialize (i.e., to read the ~/.gnus family of
> files).

How do you explain the variable's value returning to the value it used
to have?

A value it didn't have before quit/start, and a value found in no file -
if I understand Alberto correctly.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "That's a mystery, but I don't intend to inquire into        Adam Sjøgren
  it further."                                           asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>> Then that's it. The OP's Gnus isn't terminated, so
>> when he does M-x gnus RET that just brings forward
>> the same instance of Gnus, and there is no need to
>> reinitialize (i.e., to read the ~/.gnus family of
>> files).
>
> How do you explain the variable's value returning to
> the value it used to have?
>
> A value it didn't have before quit/start, and a
> value found in no file - if I understand Alberto
> correctly.

I am absolutely convinced: this is a mystery.

But I think it is a good, eh, "start" to quit Gnus
properly and see what happens.

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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Adam Sjøgren]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>>> Then that's it. The OP's Gnus isn't terminated, so when he does M-x
>>> gnus RET that just brings forward the same instance of Gnus, and
>>> there is no need to reinitialize (i.e., to read the ~/.gnus family
>>> of files).

>> How do you explain the variable's value returning to the value it
>> used to have?

>> A value it didn't have before quit/start, and a value found in no
>> file - if I understand Alberto correctly.

> I am absolutely convinced: this is a mystery.

> But I think it is a good, eh, "start" to quit Gnus properly and see
> what happens.

So what did "Then that's it." mean?


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "Vi er fanget i en kø                                        Adam Sjøgren
  I lys og nærkontakt.                                   asjo@koldfront.dk
  Hun sir at vi skal dø
  Det gad jeg ikke have sagt"


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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> So what did "Then that's it." mean?

That's why .gnus.el isn't read when he first quits
Gnus and then restarts it, because none of that
actually happens.

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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Adam Sjøgren]

Emanuel Berg writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>> So what did "Then that's it." mean?

> That's why .gnus.el isn't read when he first quits Gnus and then
> restarts it, because none of that actually happens.

Why does that matter?

The weird thing is the variable returning to a value that is in no file...


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
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  There's nowhere in the world but where you are,        asjo@koldfront.dk
  that I belong"


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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>>> So what did "Then that's it." mean?
>>
>> That's why .gnus.el isn't read when he first quits
>> Gnus and then restarts it, because none of that
>> actually happens.
>
> Why does that matter?

The key 'q' in *Group* should be `gnus-group-exit'
which should kill the *Group* buffer after which
(gnus-alive-p) should be nil, as in intuitive.

If the OP can explain why this doesn't happen it might
be disregarded but otherwise his system is br0ken and
fixing it may well fix this issue as well.

It is a partial explanation to his problem part of
which was "why does restarting Emacs set the variable,
but not restarting Gnus?" (pseudo-quote).

We have also encircled the problem as we know when the
variable is reset to its incorrect value.

The next step is: why isn't 'q' quitting Gnus, and
what in 'q' resets the variable? Go to *Group*,
`describe-key', `describe-function', then read the
code...

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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Emanuel Berg]

Alberto Luaces <aluaces@udc.es> writes:

> Pressing q on the Groups buffer, that is
> gnus-group-exit.
>
> (gnus-alive-p) returns t.

I just tried this:

    (require' nnimap)
    (setq nnimap-split-fancy "test")

Then: 'q' in *Group* (indeed `gnus-group-exit').

This means the *Group* buffer is killed,
(gnus-alive-p) is nil, and the variable is still
"test".

I have (gnus-version 1)

    Gnus v5.13

and (emacs-version 1)

    GNU Emacs 24.4.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) of
    2014-10-25 on trouble, modified by Debian

Try to reproduce this with a minimal amount of
initialization. In particular, check out the hooks
that execute when Gnus terminates (e.g.,
`gnus-exit-gnus-hook', but there might be more - use
the source, Luke!).

If you can't find it try your current setup on the
Emacs version that I have. That should tell you if it
is a bug induced by you or someone else (in what case
you should report it).

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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Alberto Luaces]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:
>
>>> (gnus-alive-p) returns t.
>>
>> In my Emacs (gnus-alive-p) returns nil after I have
>> pressed q in the *Group* buffer.
>
> Then that's it. The OP's Gnus isn't terminated, so
> when he does M-x gnus RET that just brings forward the
> same instance of Gnus, and there is no need to
> reinitialize (i.e., to read the ~/.gnus family of
> files).

I'm sorry.  I meant that (gnus-alive-p) is 't when gnus is in use.
After quitting with the q key, (gnus-alive-p) is nil.


asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> A value it didn't have before quit/start, and a value found in no file -
> if I understand Alberto correctly.

Yes, that is what is happening, Adam.

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> If you can't find it try your current setup on the
> Emacs version that I have. That should tell you if it
> is a bug induced by you or someone else (in what case
> you should report it).

I'll do.  Thanks.

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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Adam Sjøgren]

Alberto Luaces writes:

>> Can you reproduce the problem??

> Yes. [...]

How about in other Emacs-instances?

> When I quit gnus pressing q, and then restart it with M-x gnus, the
> variable is restored to its original value, not the one in ~/.gnus.el,
> which is the one I have just manually set.

Wauw.

When does it happen, after you quit Gnus, or after you have started Gnus again?

> Maybe there is something special about this variable since its help
> info says it is a "server variable".

I must admit I don't know elisp well enough to understand the entire
documentation of defvar, but this behaviour seems quite surprising to
me.


  Best regards,

    Adam

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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Alberto Luaces]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> Alberto Luaces writes:
>

[...]

>> When I quit gnus *without quitting* emacs, and then restart gnus again,
>> nnimap-split-fancy stays with its initial value.
>
> Sound odd.
>
> What does C-h v nnimap-split-fancy say?
>
> Can you reproduce the problem??
>

Yes. C-h v nnimap-split-fancy says:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
nnimap-split-fancy's value is (|
 ("list-id" ...))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

that is, the values specified in ~/.gnus.el when emacs was started.

Later, I modified the file to have an updated nnimap-split-fancy
definition.  I place the point after nnimap-split-fancy and press C-x
C-e, so now C-h v shows the new value and everything works as expected.

When I quit gnus pressing q, and then restart it with M-x gnus, the
variable is restored to its original value, not the one in ~/.gnus.el,
which is the one I have just manually set.

Maybe there is something special about this variable since its help info
says it is a "server variable".

-- 
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Re: When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Adam Sjøgren]

Alberto Luaces writes:

> Once I have gnus up and running, I want to modify my nnimap-split-fancy
> variable.  Therefore, I evaluate a sexp with the new values, and change
> .gnus.el accordingly for future sessions.  All works ok.

Sounds normal.

> When I quit gnus *without quitting* emacs, and then restart gnus again,
> nnimap-split-fancy stays with its initial value.

Sound odd.

What does C-h v nnimap-split-fancy say?

Can you reproduce the problem??

> Maybe it is no surprise that it is not reading .gnus.el again, but I
> wonder why my on-the-fly settings were also dropped.

It sounds weird to me, if that happened.

> Any chance of setting this variable without having to restart emacs?

Evaluating the expression that sets it should be sufficient, I think.
How did you do that exactly?


  Best regards,

    Adam

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When does gnus read .gnus.el variables

[Alberto Luaces]

Hi,

this could be more of an elisp question rather than a gnus question, but
there it goes:

Once I have gnus up and running, I want to modify my nnimap-split-fancy
variable.  Therefore, I evaluate a sexp with the new values, and change
.gnus.el accordingly for future sessions.  All works ok.

When I quit gnus *without quitting* emacs, and then restart gnus again,
nnimap-split-fancy stays with its initial value.  Maybe it is no
surprise that it is not reading .gnus.el again, but I wonder why my
on-the-fly settings were also dropped.

Any chance of setting this variable without having to restart emacs?

Thanks,

-- 
Alberto