Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Rodolfo Medina]

Hi.

Some old messages sent to the present newsgroup
are not accessible, it seems, if I search for them via
nntp server, whereas they're seen through web interface
and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list.
How come?
For example, the whole thread 'nntp (bla bla) open error', started on the
12 september 2004, is visible at:

http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.gnus/browse_thread/thread/6bb69dcdf1548e17/10c9d5f223a33d19?q=medina&rnum=4#10c9d5f223a33d19

, and also at:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnus-english/2004-09/msg00114.html

, whereas I can't fetch it using gnus, neither at 'nntp+news.gmane.org:gmane.emacs.gnus.user' nor at
'nntp+news.gnus.org:gnu.emacs.gnus'.

Other threads are only partially accessible via nntp.

Any thought/suggestion?
Maybe there are some other nntp servers to read the present newsgroup,
besides news.gmane.org and news.gnus.org?

Thanks,
Rodolfo

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[David Z Maze]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

> Some old messages sent to the present newsgroup
> are not accessible, it seems, if I search for them via
> nntp server, whereas they're seen through web interface
> and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list.
> How come?

Because even just "current" news is a huge disk space and bandwidth
consumer, so it's standard practice for news servers to only keep
around a small amount of recent history (maybe the past month) and
expire articles beyond that.  If you have infinite disk space and
bandwidth than it's reasonable to archive all of Usenet (hi, Google
Groups); if you're only archiving a specific group than the
requirements become much more reasonable.

I know you can use Gnus to preserve specific articles, and you can
probably combine an nntp group and a Web archive for historical
purposes, but I don't know details on either off hand.

> Maybe there are some other nntp servers to read the present newsgroup,
> besides news.gmane.org and news.gnus.org?

gnu.emacs.gnus is "a normal Usenet group" (in a way that gmane groups
generally aren't) and so any Usenet server that carries the gnu.*
hierarchy would have it.  (I'm reading on news.mit.edu, but you
generally need to be inside MIT's network to use it.)

  --dzm

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

David Z Maze <dmaze@mit.edu> writes:

> Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Some old messages sent to the present newsgroup
>> are not accessible, it seems, if I search for them via
>> nntp server, whereas they're seen through web interface
>> and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list.
>> How come?
>
> Because even just "current" news is a huge disk space and bandwidth
> consumer, so it's standard practice for news servers to only keep
> around a small amount of recent history (maybe the past month) and
> expire articles beyond that.  If you have infinite disk space and
> bandwidth than it's reasonable to archive all of Usenet (hi, Google
> Groups); if you're only archiving a specific group than the
> requirements become much more reasonable.
>
> I know you can use Gnus to preserve specific articles, and you can
> probably combine an nntp group and a Web archive for historical
> purposes, but I don't know details on either off hand.
>
>> Maybe there are some other nntp servers to read the present newsgroup,
>> besides news.gmane.org and news.gnus.org?
>
> gnu.emacs.gnus is "a normal Usenet group" (in a way that gmane groups
> generally aren't) and so any Usenet server that carries the gnu.*
> hierarchy would have it.  (I'm reading on news.mit.edu, but you
> generally need to be inside MIT's network to use it.)

Take a look at the group archive:
http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.gnus/msg/45694c47fa0b026a
subject: backfill of usenet postings

The post quotes:
info "(gnus)Finding the Parent"

-- 
[pl2en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
http://anfi.homeunix.net/

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

>>> Some old messages sent to the present newsgroup
>>> are not accessible, it seems, if I search for them via
>>> nntp server, whereas they're seen through web interface
>>> and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list.
>>> How come?



David Z Maze <dmaze@mit.edu> writes:

>> Because even just "current" news is a huge disk space and bandwidth
>> consumer, so it's standard practice for news servers to only keep
>> around a small amount of recent history (maybe the past month) and
>> expire articles beyond that.  If you have infinite disk space and
>> bandwidth than it's reasonable to archive all of Usenet (hi, Google
>> Groups); if you're only archiving a specific group than the
>> requirements become much more reasonable.


I just want to fetch via gnus some old articles I posted some time ago,
now that I've just really started using Gnus.


David:

>> I know you can use Gnus to preserve specific articles, and you can
>> probably combine an nntp group and a Web archive for historical
>> purposes, but I don't know details on either off hand.



Andrzej Adam Filip <anfi@priv.onet.pl> writes:

> Take a look at the group archive:
> http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.gnus/msg/45694c47fa0b026a
> subject: backfill of usenet postings
>
> The post quotes:
> info "(gnus)Finding the Parent"



Thanks for your replies.

Andrzej, your indication seems very interesting:
I put in my ~/.gnus.el the stuff reported in the info:


     (setq gnus-refer-article-method
           '(current
             (nnweb "google" (nnweb-type google))))


, then in the nntp+news.gnus.org:gnu.emacs.gnus summary buffer I did 'M-^'
and entered the Message-ID I was looking for; I waited for a while for
gnus to search into google, then the message:


  
Opening nnweb server on google...done
Loading url-auth...done
Contacting host: www.google.com:80
Loading url-cache...done
Contacting host: groups.google.com:80
Trying again (2)...
Contacting host: www.google.com:80
Requested article not found
Generating summary...done
Fetched article <97a048c6.0409120237.7ad4c627@posting.google.com>
No such article (may have expired or been canceled)
Contacting host: groups.google.com:80


. Should I give it up and accept the defeat?
But I insist that the article is present in Google archives, at:

http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.gnus/browse_thread/thread/6bb69dcdf1548e17/10c9d5f223a33d19?q=medina&rnum=4#10c9d5f223a33d19

, and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list, here:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnus-english/2004-09/msg00114.html

, so it *can't* be really expired or canceled, and there *must* (or should) 
be a way to fetch it via gnus.
Other toughts/suggestions?

Cheers,
Rodolfo

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:
> [...]
> Andrzej, your indication seems very interesting:
> I put in my ~/.gnus.el the stuff reported in the info:
>
>
>      (setq gnus-refer-article-method
>            '(current
>              (nnweb "google" (nnweb-type google))))
>
>
> , then in the nntp+news.gnus.org:gnu.emacs.gnus summary buffer I did 'M-^'
> and entered the Message-ID I was looking for; I waited for a while for
> gnus to search into google, then the message:
>
>
>   
> Opening nnweb server on google...done
> Loading url-auth...done
> Contacting host: www.google.com:80
> Loading url-cache...done
> Contacting host: groups.google.com:80
> Trying again (2)...
> Contacting host: www.google.com:80
> Requested article not found
> Generating summary...done
> Fetched article <97a048c6.0409120237.7ad4c627@posting.google.com>
> No such article (may have expired or been canceled)
> Contacting host: groups.google.com:80
>
>
> . Should I give it up and accept the defeat?
> But I insist that the article is present in Google archives, at:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.gnus/browse_thread/thread/6bb69dcdf1548e17/10c9d5f223a33d19?q=medina&rnum=4#10c9d5f223a33d19
>
> , and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list, here:
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnus-english/2004-09/msg00114.html
>
> , so it *can't* be really expired or canceled, and there *must* (or should) 
> be a way to fetch it via gnus.
> Other toughts/suggestions?

One source suggest that google may be picky about browser:
http://my.gnus.org/node/95?PHPSESSID=dae6988877b26346b80f5fedd707cf40&menus_expanded%5B1%5D=1&PHPSESSID=dae6988877b26346b80f5fedd707cf40
[it did not help]

Another source states the method may to "survive" changes in google
replies format:
http://www.gnus.org/manual/gnus_189.html


-- 
[pl2en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
http://anfi.homeunix.net/

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

>>> Some old messages sent to the present newsgroup
>>> are not accessible, it seems, if I search for them via
>>> nntp server, whereas they're seen through web interface
>>> and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list.
>
>> [...] the article is present in Google archives, at:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.gnus/browse_thread/thread/6bb69dcdf1548e17/10c9d5f223a33d19?q=medina&rnum=4#10c9d5f223a33d19
>>
>> , and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list, here:
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnus-english/2004-09/msg00114.html
>>
>> , so it *can't* be really expired or canceled, and there *must* (or should) 
>> be a way to fetch it via gnus.




Andrzej Adam Filip <anfi@priv.onet.pl> writes:
> One source suggest that google may be picky about browser:
> http://my.gnus.org/node/95?PHPSESSID=dae6988877b26346b80f5fedd707cf40&menus_expanded%5B1%5D=1&PHPSESSID=dae6988877b26346b80f5fedd707cf40
> [it did not help]
>
> Another source states the method may to "survive" changes in google
> replies format:
> http://www.gnus.org/manual/gnus_189.html



Thanks, Andrzej:
following the second source indications: in group buffer I did 'G w',
chose 'google' as 'searching engine type', entered the desired string and...
all five the articles of the thread were found!, but they're all blank... :(

Other suggestions welcome.
Rodolfo

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

> Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>> Some old messages sent to the present newsgroup
>>>> are not accessible, it seems, if I search for them via
>>>> nntp server, whereas they're seen through web interface
>>>> and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list.
>>
>>> [...] the article is present in Google archives, at:
>>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.emacs.gnus/browse_thread/thread/6bb69dcdf1548e17/10c9d5f223a33d19?q=medina&rnum=4#10c9d5f223a33d19
>>>
>>> , and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list, here:
>>>
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnus-english/2004-09/msg00114.html
>>>
>>> , so it *can't* be really expired or canceled, and there *must* (or should) 
>>> be a way to fetch it via gnus.
>
> Andrzej Adam Filip <anfi@priv.onet.pl> writes:
>> One source suggest that google may be picky about browser:
>> http://my.gnus.org/node/95?PHPSESSID=dae6988877b26346b80f5fedd707cf40&menus_expanded%5B1%5D=1&PHPSESSID=dae6988877b26346b80f5fedd707cf40
>> [it did not help]
>>
>> Another source states the method may to "survive" changes in google
>> replies format:
>> http://www.gnus.org/manual/gnus_189.html
>
>
>
> Thanks, Andrzej:
> following the second source indications: in group buffer I did 'G w',
> chose 'google' as 'searching engine type', entered the desired string and...
> all five the articles of the thread were found!, but they're all blank... :(
>
> Other suggestions welcome.
> Rodolfo

Most likely google has changed "output format" (may be search url too).
I have not seen the implementation, I do not feel competent to modify it.

-- 
[pl2en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
http://anfi.homeunix.net/

Problems with `nnweb' mode (was: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup)

[Rodolfo Medina]

In Gnus Manual there is:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The `nnweb' back end allows an easy interface to the mighty search
engine.  You create an `nnweb' group, enter a search pattern, and then
enter the group and read the articles like you would any normal group.
The `G w' command in the group buffer (*note Foreign Groups::) will do
this in an easy-to-use fashion.

[...]

   You must have the `url' and `W3' package or those alternatives (try
`customize-group' on the `mm-url' variable group) installed to be able
to use `nnweb'.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I installed emacs-w3m and also the `url' package,
but the message gnus finds with the above procedure (`G w' etcetera)
are all completely blank.

Any help?
Thanks,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> I installed emacs-w3m and also the `url' package, but the message gnus
> finds with the above procedure (`G w' etcetera) are all completely
> blank.

Here, too. Google has changed its format, and it's not documented
anywhere. If you use groups.google.com's search in a browser you can see
the new search-string, but there's no way to find out how to tell google
to return the found article as plain-text, so that gnus can display it.

Maybe one could work arround this by fetching the result's html page and
stripping the html-tags, but that would be really hard work...

It's likely that there's no API because google doesn't want that people
use it that way. People searching for articles at google via their
newsreaders cannot see the banners and ads...

Nevertheless, I've sent a mail to google and asked if usage of
groups.google.com in own applications is allowed, and if yes, where I
can read how it works.

Regards,
Tassilo
-- 
A child of five could understand this! Fetch me a child of five!

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Andreas Seltenreich]

Tassilo Horn schrob:

> Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I installed emacs-w3m and also the `url' package, but the message gnus
>> finds with the above procedure (`G w' etcetera) are all completely
>> blank.
>
> Here, too. Google has changed its format, and it's not documented
> anywhere. If you use groups.google.com's search in a browser you can see
> the new search-string, but there's no way to find out how to tell google
> to return the found article as plain-text, so that gnus can display it.

It should work again for both google and gmane in the upcoming
releases. The current version of No Gnus from CVS works for
me. Although, there might still be some value/version combination of
mm-url-program which wasn't tested yet.

regards,
andreas

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Andreas Seltenreich <seltenreich@gmx.de> writes:

Hi Andreas,

> It should work again for both google and gmane in the upcoming
> releases. The current version of No Gnus from CVS works for
> me. Although, there might still be some value/version combination of
> mm-url-program which wasn't tested yet.

I've seen your patch at <871wwdb5ew.fsf@gate450.dyndns.org> and couldn't
believe this was the fix for this problem, because the urls defined in
nnweb.el are completely different than the urls you see when searching
at groups.google.com in a browser. But maybe there are multiple
possibilities.

I updated my NoGnus CVS copy, but Gnus still fetches only empty
messages.

To get a little more concrete: I tried fetching the message

     <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com>

by pressing RET on this message-id. *Messages* says:

,----[ *Messages* ]
| Opening nnweb server on google...done
| No matching articles
| No such article (may have expired or been canceled)
`----

Now I browse groups.google.com and enter the message-id in the search
field, and google finds the article. The search-string visible in my
browser's address bar is

    http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+<escaped-message-id>

If I type in the url defined in nnweb.el (id) into my browser and
replace "%s" with the (escaped) message-id, the result page states:

    "The requested message,
    <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com>, could not be found."


Here are some infos about my system.

With wget (1.10.2) it does not work.

,----[ C-h v mm-url-program RET ]
| mm-url-program is a variable defined in `mm-url.el'.
| Its value is wget
|
| Documentation:
| The url grab program.
| Likely values are `wget', `w3m', `lynx' and `curl'.
`----

I tested this, too. (Doesn't work, w3m-0.5.1, emacs-w3m-1.4.4)

,----[ C-h v mm-url-program RET ]
| mm-url-program is a variable defined in `mm-url.el'.
| Its value is "w3m"
`----

This doesn't work, too. (curl-7.15.3)

,----[ C-h v mm-url-program RET ]
| mm-url-program is a variable defined in `mm-url.el'.
| Its value is "curl"
`----

And this last one fetches only empty articles, too. (lynx-2.8.5)

,----[ C-h v mm-url-program RET ]
| mm-url-program is a variable defined in `mm-url.el'.
| Its value is "lynx"
`----

,----[ C-h v gnus-refer-article-method RET ]
| gnus-refer-article-method is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
| Its value is shown below.
|
| Value:
| (current
|  (nntp "newshost.uni-koblenz.de")
|  (nntp "news.gmane.org")
|  (nnweb "gmane"
|         (nnweb-type gmane))
|  (nnweb "google"
|         (nnweb-type google)))
`----

Can I provide any additional infos? I would volunteer to spend some time
with testing to get this fixed (before the release, if possible).

Kind regards,
Tassilo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Andreas Seltenreich]

Tassilo Horn schrob:

> Andreas Seltenreich <seltenreich@gmx.de> writes:
>
>> It should work again for both google and gmane in the upcoming
>> releases. The current version of No Gnus from CVS works for
>> me. Although, there might still be some value/version combination of
>> mm-url-program which wasn't tested yet.
>
> I've seen your patch at <871wwdb5ew.fsf@gate450.dyndns.org> and couldn't
> believe this was the fix for this problem

Right, it isn't, but that was not the only patch I sent concerning
nnweb :-).

> I updated my NoGnus CVS copy, but Gnus still fetches only empty
> messages.
>
> To get a little more concrete: I tried fetching the message
>
>      <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com>
>
> by pressing RET on this message-id. *Messages* says:
>
> ,----[ *Messages* ]
> | Opening nnweb server on google...done
> | No matching articles
> | No such article (may have expired or been canceled)
> `----

Hmm, right, I'm getting the same when mm-url-use-external is nil. The
cause seems to be that there now are two redirects (302 Found). Too
bad mm-url doesn't support redirects when doing internal fetching.

I don't see how one can avoid all redirects, since the last one turns
the message-id into some internal id :-(. So, referring articles by
message-id is basically broken when mm-url-use-external is nil, until
it is taught how to deal with redirects.

> Now I browse groups.google.com and enter the message-id in the search
> field, and google finds the article. The search-string visible in my
> browser's address bar is
>
>     http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+<escaped-message-id>
>
> If I type in the url defined in nnweb.el (id) into my browser and
> replace "%s" with the (escaped) message-id, the result page states:
>
>     "The requested message,
>     <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com>, could not be found."

Try again without the angle brackets :-).

> Here are some infos about my system.
>
> With wget (1.10.2) it does not work.
>
> ,----[ C-h v mm-url-program RET ]
> | mm-url-program is a variable defined in `mm-url.el'.
> | Its value is wget
> |
> | Documentation:
> | The url grab program.
> | Likely values are `wget', `w3m', `lynx' and `curl'.
> `----
>
> I tested this, too. (Doesn't work, w3m-0.5.1, emacs-w3m-1.4.4)

Did you set mm-url-use-external to t when testing? If you did to no
avail, then does the following request work? (works for me)

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(let ((url
       "http://www.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com&hl=en&dmode=source")
      (mm-url-use-external t)
      (mm-url-program 'wget))
  (mm-url-insert url t))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

> Can I provide any additional infos? I would volunteer to spend some time
> with testing to get this fixed (before the release, if possible).

Hmm, do web groups work for you (G w in the Group Buffer)? They work
for me for both, internal and external fetching.

Thanks for the feedback!
Andreas

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Andreas Seltenreich]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1495 bytes --]

Andreas Seltenreich schrob:

> Tassilo Horn schrob:
>
>> I updated my NoGnus CVS copy, but Gnus still fetches only empty
>> messages.
>>
>> To get a little more concrete: I tried fetching the message
>>
>>      <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com>
>>
>> by pressing RET on this message-id. *Messages* says:
>>
>> ,----[ *Messages* ]
>> | Opening nnweb server on google...done
>> | No matching articles
>> | No such article (may have expired or been canceled)
>> `----
>
> Hmm, right, I'm getting the same when mm-url-use-external is nil. The
> cause seems to be that there now are two redirects (302 Found). Too
> bad mm-url doesn't support redirects when doing internal fetching.
>
> I don't see how one can avoid all redirects, since the last one turns
> the message-id into some internal id :-(. So, referring articles by
> message-id is basically broken when mm-url-use-external is nil, until
> it is taught how to deal with redirects.

Update: url-http.el apparently does support redirects, but it seems to
get confused by the "Connection: close" extra header mm-url is feeding
to it. I suspect this is a bug in url-http.el, since it most probably
would also not work when connection keep-alive is disabled or not
supported on the server side.

Referring articles via nnweb.el works for me with mm-url-use-external
set to nil with the attached patch. I don't know what the motivation
was for disabling keep-alive in mm-url.el, so the patch might be a bad
idea...

regards,
andreas


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: mm-url.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 604 bytes --]

Index: mm-url.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/gnus/lisp/mm-url.el,v
retrieving revision 7.13
diff -c -r7.13 mm-url.el
*** mm-url.el	20 Jan 2006 08:35:06 -0000	7.13
--- mm-url.el	5 Apr 2006 04:01:04 -0000
***************
*** 299,305 ****
  	(list url (buffer-size)))
      (mm-url-load-url)
      (let ((name buffer-file-name)
- 	  (url-request-extra-headers (list (cons "Connection" "Close")))
  	  (url-package-name (or mm-url-package-name
  				url-package-name))
  	  (url-package-version (or mm-url-package-version
--- 299,304 ----

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 161 bytes --]

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Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Andreas Seltenreich <seltenreich@gmx.de> writes:

Hi Andreas,

>> Hmm, right, I'm getting the same when mm-url-use-external is nil. The
>> cause seems to be that there now are two redirects (302 Found). Too
>> bad mm-url doesn't support redirects when doing internal fetching.
>>
>> [snip]
>
> Update: url-http.el apparently does support redirects, but it seems to
> get confused by the "Connection: close" extra header mm-url is feeding
> to it. I suspect this is a bug in url-http.el, since it most probably
> would also not work when connection keep-alive is disabled or not
> supported on the server side.
>
> Referring articles via nnweb.el works for me with mm-url-use-external
> set to nil with the attached patch. I don't know what the motivation
> was for disabling keep-alive in mm-url.el, so the patch might be a bad
> idea...

I applied you patch, but here nothing changed:

    * Web Groups (G w) work with mm-url-use-external set to nil or t.

    * RET on message-ids still fetches empty articles with
      mm-url-use-external set to t or nil.

Regards,
Tassilo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo wrote:

> In Gnus Manual there is:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The `nnweb' back end allows an easy interface to the mighty search
> engine.  You create an `nnweb' group, enter a search pattern, and then
> enter the group and read the articles like you would any normal group.
> The `G w' command in the group buffer (*note Foreign Groups::) will do
> this in an easy-to-use fashion.
>
> [...]
>
>    You must have the `url' and `W3' package or those alternatives (try
> `customize-group' on the `mm-url' variable group) installed to be able
> to use `nnweb'.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I installed emacs-w3m and also the `url' package,
> but the message gnus finds with the above procedure (`G w' etcetera)
> are all completely blank.



Tassilo wrote:

> Ok, now to summarize:
>
>   * Web groups work (with internal and external fetching)
>
>   * RET on message-id still fetches empty messages with
>     mm-url-use-external set to t. `G w google <mid>' with the same
>     message-id finds the correct article.



Hi, Tassilo,

do you mean that the problem is fixed now?
If so, could you provide a plain explanation of how to work it out?

Thanks,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Andreas Seltenreich <seltenreich@gmx.de> writes:

Hi Andreas,

>> If I type in the url defined in nnweb.el (id) into my browser and
>> replace "%s" with the (escaped) message-id, the result page states:
>>
>>     "The requested message,
>>     <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com>, could not be found."
>
> Try again without the angle brackets :-).

As I said, I replaced the angle brackets and the @ with their URL escape
sequences.

> Did you set mm-url-use-external to t when testing?

No, I didn't know I have to do that.

> If you did to no avail, then does the following request work? (works
> for me)
>
> [snip]

Yes, works for me as well.

> Hmm, do web groups work for you (G w in the Group Buffer)? They work
> for me for both, internal and external fetching.

Yes, both work. Maybe it was a partly user error yesterday. I set
mm-url-program to "foo" (string) but it has to be 'foo.

Ok, now to summarize:

  * Web groups work (with internal and external fetching)

  * RET on message-id still fetches empty messages with
    mm-url-use-external set to t. `G w google <mid>' with the same
    message-id finds the correct article.

Kind regards,
Tassilo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Andreas Seltenreich]

Tassilo Horn schrob:

> Andreas Seltenreich <seltenreich@gmx.de> writes:
>
>>> If I type in the url defined in nnweb.el (id) into my browser and
>>> replace "%s" with the (escaped) message-id, the result page states:
>>>
>>>     "The requested message,
>>>     <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com>, could not be found."
>>
>> Try again without the angle brackets :-).
>
> As I said, I replaced the angle brackets and the @ with their URL escape
> sequences.

Sorry if I was unclear. The angle brackets have to be *removed* and
not URL encoded in order for the search to work. The brackets in the
Message above indicate that they weren't.

>> Did you set mm-url-use-external to t when testing?
>
> No, I didn't know I have to do that.
>
>> If you did to no avail, then does the following request work? (works
>> for me)
>>
>> [snip]
>
> Yes, works for me as well.

This is a bit baffling, since the current code should produce exactly
the same request when referring the id, and mm-url-use-external and
mm-url-program are bound to the same values. I'd be desperate enough
by now to use tcpdump to see what is actually going through the ether.

regards,
andreas

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Andreas Seltenreich <seltenreich@gmx.de> writes:

Hi Andreas,

> Sorry if I was unclear. The angle brackets have to be *removed* and
> not URL encoded in order for the search to work. The brackets in the
> Message above indicate that they weren't.

Ok, I removed the brackets and the request works. :-)

>>> [snip]
>>
>> Yes, works for me as well.
>
> This is a bit baffling, since the current code should produce exactly
> the same request when referring the id, and mm-url-use-external and
> mm-url-program are bound to the same values. I'd be desperate enough
> by now to use tcpdump to see what is actually going through the ether.

Hey, the tcpdump-thing was a good idea. When executing your snipped
(which worked), the requests go to 64.233.167.99, which is a google
server. If I click a message-id, the tcpdump records only packets with
destination "sea.gmane.org.nntp", so google never seems to be asked.

My config is as follows:

(setq gnus-refer-article-method
      '(current
        (nntp "newshost.uni-koblenz.de")
        (nntp "news.gmane.org")
        (nnweb "gmane"
               (nnweb-type gmane))
        (nnweb "google"
               (nnweb-type google))))

That's the way I'd like it to work: First try to lookup the article in
the local agent cache, if that fails try the nntp-servers of my
university and gmane, and if that fails, too, try to get it from gmane
or google.

But as I said: When I press RET on this example message-id in this
thread, tcpdump records only packets with destination
"sea.gmane.org.nntp". As the current thread is in a gmane group, it
seems to correspond to the "current" refer method, I'd say. The
message-id corresponds to an article on
de.comp.hardware.laufwerke.festplatten, so gmane is the wrong partner
here. 

But why doesn't it try to get it at the other alternatives?

Kind regards,
Tassilo
-- 
98% of us Americans are hard-working people. It's the other 2% that give
us a bad reputation. Then again, we did elect them.

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

Hi again!

I think last time I was a littlebit too fast with my answer. The filters
on tcpdump were too restrictive and so I missed some things. This time I
used ethereal and captured my network device (only TCP packets) when
pressing RET on a message-id, which I know I can get from google.

,----[ C-h v gnus-refer-article-method RET ]
| Its value is shown below.
|
| Value:
| (current
|  (nntp "newshost.uni-koblenz.de")
|  (nntp "news.gmane.org")
|  (nnweb "gmane"
|         (nnweb-type gmane))
|  (nnweb "google"
|         (nnweb-type google)))
`----

All servers contacted by this request were:

  - main.gmane.org      [HTTP]
  - news.uni-koblenz.de [NNTPS]
  - sea.gmane.org       [NNTP]

But where's google???

Unfortunately the *Messages* buffer states:

,----[ *Messages* ]
| Opening nntp server on newshost.uni-koblenz.de...done
| Opening nntp server on news.gmane.org...done
| Opening nnweb server on gmane...done
| Contacting host: gmane.org:80
| Generating summary...done
| Opening nntp server on newshost.uni-koblenz.de...done
| Opening nntp server on news.gmane.org...done
| Opening nnweb server on google...done
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
| No matching articles
| No such article (may have expired or been canceled)
`----

Weird...

So I simplified my `gnus-refer-article-method', so that it only contains
current and gmane:

,----[ C-h v gnus-refer-article-method RET ]
| Its value is 
| (current
|  (nnweb "google"
|         (nnweb-type google)))
`----

I still get an empty message into my summary buffer, so let's see what
*Messages* says:

,----[ *Messages* ]
| Contacting host: www.google.com:80
| Contacting host: groups.google.com:80
| Requested article not found
| Generating summary...done
| Fetched article <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com>
| No such article (may have expired or been canceled)
`----

Wow, that's even more weird. How can it fetch the article, if the
article was not found (The m-id shown in *Messages* is the one I clicked
on)? And if it fetched the article, why isn't it displayed?

Any Ideas?

Regards,
Tassilo
--
A child of five could understand this! Fetch me a child of five!

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Andreas, Tassilo:

thanks indeed for your efforts to solve the problem, but:
since the discussion gets involved into technical and difficult matters,
I newbie don't even know any more if it is worked out or not...
If it is, would you please provide newbie-understandable recipe
of what to do?

Excuse my ignorance,
thanks,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> thanks indeed for your efforts to solve the problem, but: since the
> discussion gets involved into technical and difficult matters, I
> newbie don't even know any more if it is worked out or not...  If it
> is, would you please provide newbie-understandable recipe of what to
> do?

Sure. It seems, that nnweb.el works. If you want to search for a message
with the message-id <foobar@barfoo.example> at google, go into your
*Group* buffer and type:

    `G w RET <foobar@barfoo.example> RET'

Then a new summary buffer with the found article will open.

To search at gmane you could write:

    `G w gmane RET <foobar@barfoo.example> RET'

BTW: You can search with any search string, not only message-ids. So if
you want to search for postings at google which are about blue roses
try:

    `G w RET blue roses RET'

My problem is that Gnus doesn't search with all select methods I
configured in my `gnus-refer-article-method' when I press RET on a
message-id.

,----[ C-h v gnus-refer-article-method RET ]
| gnus-refer-article-method is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
| Its value is shown below.
| 
| Documentation:
| Preferred method for fetching an article by Message-ID.
| If you are reading news from the local spool (with nnspool), fetching
| articles by Message-ID is painfully slow.  By setting this method to an
| nntp method, you might get acceptable results.
| 
| The value of this variable must be a valid select method as discussed
| in the documentation of `gnus-select-method'.
| 
| It can also be a list of select methods, as well as the special symbol
| `current', which means to use the current select method.  If it is a
| list, Gnus will try all the methods in the list until it finds a
| match.
| 
| You can customize this variable.
| 
| Value:
| (current
|  (nntp "newshost.uni-koblenz.de")
|  (nntp "news.gmane.org")
|  (nnweb "gmane"
|         (nnweb-type gmane))
|  (nnweb "google"
|         (nnweb-type google)))
`----

The docs tell me that Gnus will try all select methods until it finds
the searched message, but here it seems that Gnus stops after the first
(current), and return an empty message if it fails with it.

I'm not sure if it's a bug in my configuration or a bug in Gnus, but
I'll investigate a bit further.

Kind regards,
Tassilo
-- 
98% of us Americans are hard-working people. It's the other 2% that give
us a bad reputation. Then again, we did elect them.

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, Apr 06 2006, Tassilo Horn wrote:

> If you want to search for a message with the message-id
> <foobar@barfoo.example> at google, go into your *Group* buffer and
> type:
>
>     `G w RET <foobar@barfoo.example> RET'
[...]
> BTW: You can search with any search string, not only message-ids. 

Cool, I wasn't aware that it works for MIDs on Google.  I think
previously you had to type it into the MID field of the advanced
search.

I used to enter some random group and hit `j MID RET' upto now.

> |  (nntp "news.gmane.org")
> |  (nnweb "gmane"
> |         (nnweb-type gmane))
> |  (nnweb "google"
> |         (nnweb-type google)))

I don't think duplicating Gmane makes much sense, does it?  Maybe even
`(nnweb "google" ...)' causes the problem because it doesn't signal
"not found" correctly.  (Cf. the "FIXME" in
`nnweb-google-wash-article').

> The docs tell me that Gnus will try all select methods until it finds
> the searched message, but here it seems that Gnus stops after the first
> (current), and return an empty message if it fails with it.

Yes, it should.  It works for me with...

,----[ <f1> v gnus-refer-article-method RET ]
| gnus-refer-article-method is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
| [...]
| Value:
| (current
|  (nntp "localhost")
|  (nnml "personal")
|  (nnml "news")
|  (nnml "archive")
|  (nntp "news.uni-ulm.de")
|  (nntp "news.belwue.de")
|  (nntp "news.gmane.org")
|  (nntp "news.gnus.org")
|  (nnweb "google"
| 	(nnweb-type google)))
`----

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

Hi Reiner,

>> |  (nntp "news.gmane.org")
>> |  (nnweb "gmane"
>> |         (nnweb-type gmane))
>> |  (nnweb "google"
>> |         (nnweb-type google)))
>
> I don't think duplicating Gmane makes much sense, does it?

Not sure. I thought the web archives may perhaps store articles forever
while the news server expires them after some time. But, of course, I
may be wrong...

> Maybe even `(nnweb "google" ...)' causes the problem because it
> doesn't signal "not found" correctly.  (Cf. the "FIXME" in
> `nnweb-google-wash-article').

Ah, I see. But the article I tested with can surely be found with
google, but it return an empty article when pressing RET on its
MID. (see <87psjuu1v6.fsf@baldur.nicundtas.de>)

>> The docs tell me that Gnus will try all select methods until it finds
>> the searched message, but here it seems that Gnus stops after the
>> first (current), and return an empty message if it fails with it.
>
> Yes, it should.  It works for me with...

But not for me. In <87psjuu1v6.fsf@baldur.nicundtas.de> I've cut down
gnus-refer-article-method to only current and google, but even then no
article will be found.

But with `G w RET <MID> RET' this article and all articles in
gnu.emacs.gnus where I mention this MID are found.

Regards,
Tassilo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, Apr 06 2006, Tassilo Horn wrote:

> I thought the web archives may perhaps store articles forever while
> the news server expires them after some time. But, of course, I may
> be wrong...

You are wrong here, I think.  Gmane's web server fetches the articles
from the news server.  (You could ask on gmane.discuss to be sure.)

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> You are wrong here, I think.  Gmane's web server fetches the articles
> from the news server.  (You could ask on gmane.discuss to be sure.)

Good to know.

Thanks,
Tassilo
-- 
My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:45:11 +0200, Tassilo wrote:

> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

>> I don't think duplicating Gmane makes much sense, does it?

> Not sure. I thought the web archives may perhaps store articles forever
> while the news server expires them after some time. But, of course, I
> may be wrong...

Gmane is an archive. Emails on Gmane never expire.

(Unless people ask for it in their headers, that is).


  Best regards,

-- 
 "I love loopholes."                                          Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo wrote:

> In Gnus Manual there is:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The `nnweb' back end allows an easy interface to the mighty search
> engine.  You create an `nnweb' group, enter a search pattern, and then
> enter the group and read the articles like you would any normal group.
> The `G w' command in the group buffer (*note Foreign Groups::) will do
> this in an easy-to-use fashion.
>
> [...]
>
>    You must have the `url' and `W3' package or those alternatives (try
> `customize-group' on the `mm-url' variable group) installed to be able
> to use `nnweb'.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I installed emacs-w3m and also the `url' package,
> but the message gnus finds with the above procedure (`G w' etcetera)
> are all completely blank.




Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

> It seems, that nnweb.el works. If you want to search for a message
> with the message-id <foobar@barfoo.example> at google, go into your
> *Group* buffer and type:
>
>     `G w RET <foobar@barfoo.example> RET'
>
> Then a new summary buffer with the found article will open.
>
> To search at gmane you could write:
>
>     `G w gmane RET <foobar@barfoo.example> RET'
>
> BTW: You can search with any search string, not only message-ids. So if
> you want to search for postings at google which are about blue roses
> try:
>
>     `G w RET blue roses RET'



Hi, Tassilo:

as I reported in my previous message, the articles I get that way
are all blank: that's why I started the present thread.
If instead it works for you, maybe there's some difference
in our procedures; but I did exactly `G w RET <foobar@barfoo.example> RET'
as you suggest.
Any idea?

Cheers,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> but I did exactly `G w RET <foobar@barfoo.example> RET' as you
> suggest.  

Did you really type "<foobar@barfoo.example>"? That was only a
placeholder. :-)

Try:

    `G w RET <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com> RET'

This works for me and a new summary buffer should appear containing some
messages by me and the original message with above's MID.

But first you have to make sure, that google is in your
`gnus-refer-article-method'.

,----[ C-h v gnus-refer-article-method RET ]
| gnus-refer-article-method is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
| Its value is 
| (current
|  (nnweb "google"
|         (nnweb-type google)))
`----

If that's not the case, you need to set it in your ~/.gnus.el.

(setq gnus-refer-article-method
      '(current
        (nnweb "google"
               (nnweb-type google))))

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
A child of five could understand this! Fetch me a child of five!

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo wrote:

> In Gnus Manual there is:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The `nnweb' back end allows an easy interface to the mighty search
> engine.  You create an `nnweb' group, enter a search pattern, and then
> enter the group and read the articles like you would any normal group.
> The `G w' command in the group buffer (*note Foreign Groups::) will do
> this in an easy-to-use fashion.
>
> [...]
>
>    You must have the `url' and `W3' package or those alternatives (try
> `customize-group' on the `mm-url' variable group) installed to be able
> to use `nnweb'.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I installed emacs-w3m and also the `url' package,
> but the message gnus finds with the above procedure (`G w' etcetera)
> are all completely blank.




Tassilo wrote:

> Try:
>
>     `G w RET <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com> RET'
>
> This works for me and a new summary buffer should appear containing some
> messages by me and the original message with above's MID.
>
> But first you have to make sure, that google is in your
> `gnus-refer-article-method'.
>
> ,----[ C-h v gnus-refer-article-method RET ]
> | gnus-refer-article-method is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
> | Its value is 
> | (current
> |  (nnweb "google"
> |         (nnweb-type google)))
> `----
>
> If that's not the case, you need to set it in your ~/.gnus.el.
>
> (setq gnus-refer-article-method
>       '(current
>         (nnweb "google"
>                (nnweb-type google))))




I did as you suggest: in my ~/.gnus.el I put the above stuff, 
closed emacs, opened up emacs, started Gnus and did: 
`C-h v gnus-refer-article-method RET',
and the following message appeared:

gnus-refer-article-method is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
Its value is 
(current
 (nnweb "google"
	(nnweb-type google)))

. Then I did:
`G w RET <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com> RET';
but, as I reported in my very first message of the present long thread,
all the messages displayed by Gnus are *completely blank*.

I strongly please you all Gnus experts, if a solution to the problem 
has ever been found, to kindly provide it in the present thread also 
for gnus-newbie people like me.

Thanks,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> gnus-refer-article-method is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
> Its value is 
> (current
>  (nnweb "google"
> 	(nnweb-type google)))
>
> . Then I did:
> `G w RET <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com> RET';
> but, as I reported in my very first message of the present long thread,
> all the messages displayed by Gnus are *completely blank*.

Excatly this works for me. Really odd...

Is your NoGnus copy up-to-date?

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
A morning without coffee is like something without something else.

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo wrote:

>> gnus-refer-article-method is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
>> Its value is 
>> (current
>>  (nnweb "google"
>> 	(nnweb-type google)))
>>
>> . Then I did:
>> `G w RET <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com> RET';
>> but, as I reported in my very first message of the present long thread,
>> all the messages displayed by Gnus are *completely blank*.
>


Tassilo wrote:

> Excatly this works for me. Really odd...
>
> Is your NoGnus copy up-to-date?



Maybe not: the command `M-x gnus-version' produces the following
response:

No Gnus v0.4

. Shall I update it?

Bye,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> No Gnus v0.4

I've seen that, look at your User-Agent header. ;-)

,----
| User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux)
`----

NoGnus is the current development Gnus from CVS HEAD, so I thought you
checked it out from CVS, did you?

If not and you use a package you distribution provides, then you have to
ask the maintainer if he wants to update it unless you use gentoo as I
do. If that's the case the update is as simple as:

,----
| # emerge gnus-cvs
`----

After that, restart Emacs/Gnus and try again.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
A morning without coffee is like something without something else.

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo wrote:

> I did as you suggest: in my ~/.gnus.el I put the above stuff, 
> closed emacs, opened up emacs, started Gnus and did: 
> `C-h v gnus-refer-article-method RET',
> and the following message appeared:
>
> gnus-refer-article-method is a variable defined in `gnus.el'.
> Its value is 
> (current
>  (nnweb "google"
> 	(nnweb-type google)))
>
> . Then I did:
> `G w RET <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com> RET';
> but, as I reported in my very first message of the present long thread,
> all the messages displayed by Gnus are *completely blank*.




Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

>> `G w RET <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com> RET';
>> but, as I reported in my very first message of the present long thread,
>> all the messages displayed by Gnus are *completely blank*.
>
> Excatly this works for me. Really odd...
>
> Is your NoGnus copy up-to-date?



I tried to update my NoGnus copy with: `$ cvs update'
from my `~/gnus' directory but got the output:

cvs update: warning: failed to open /home/rodolfo/.cvspass for reading: No such file or directory
cvs update: authorization failed: server cvs.gnus.org rejected access to /usr/local/cvsroot for user gnus
cvs update: used empty password; try "cvs login" with a real password

. Then I removed Gnus and freshly downloaded it from cvs repositories
and installed it again;
but now it's even worse: when I do
`G w RET <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com> RET'
in the group buffer, no message is displayed, not even blank,
but instead in the echo area I get the output:

url-http: Process groups.google.com not running

. I'm really stuck!
Any help?
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> but now it's even worse: when I do
> `G w RET <419g22duprrhohcfaf84srcl0bdrljsjnl@4ax.com> RET'
> in the group buffer, no message is displayed, not even blank,
> but instead in the echo area I get the output:

Echo area? Do you mean the mini buffer or *Messages*?

> url-http: Process groups.google.com not running

,----[ C-h f url-http RET ]
| url-http is an autoloaded Lisp function in `url-http'.
| (url-http URL CALLBACK CBARGS)
| 
| Retrieve URL via HTTP asynchronously.
| URL must be a parsed URL.  See `url-generic-parse-url' for details.
| When retrieval is completed, the function CALLBACK is executed with
| CBARGS as the arguments.
`----

`url-http' is an emacs function, so the first thing I'd try would be
updating emacs, too.

Bye,
Tassilo 
-- 
A morning without coffee is like something without something else.

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Johan Bockgård]

Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

> Echo area? Do you mean the mini buffer or *Messages*?

"Echo area" is correct.

(info "(emacs)Glossary")

  Echo Area
     The echo area is the bottom line of the screen, used for echoing
     the arguments to commands, for asking questions, and showing
     brief messages (including error messages). The messages are
     stored in the buffer `*Messages*' so you can review them later.

  Minibuffer
     The minibuffer is the window that appears when necessary inside
     the echo area (q.v.), used for reading arguments to commands.

-- 
Johan Bockgård

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

bojohan+news@dd.chalmers.se (Johan Bockgård) writes:

Hi Johan,

> "Echo area" is correct.
>
> (info "(emacs)Glossary")
>
>   Echo Area
>      The echo area is the bottom line of the screen, used for echoing
>      the arguments to commands, for asking questions, and showing
>      brief messages (including error messages). The messages are
>      stored in the buffer `*Messages*' so you can review them later.
>
>   Minibuffer
>      The minibuffer is the window that appears when necessary inside
>      the echo area (q.v.), used for reading arguments to commands.

Oh, thanks, you life and learn. ;-)

Regards,
Tassilo
-- 
A morning without coffee is like something without something else.

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode (was: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup)

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo wrote:

> Some old messages sent to the present newsgroup
> are not accessible, it seems, if I search for them via
> nntp server, whereas they're seen through web interface
> and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list.
> How come?
>
> [snip]
>
> Other threads are only partially accessible via nntp.
>
> Any thought/suggestion?


The Gnus Manual says:

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The `nnweb' back end allows an easy interface to the mighty search
> engine.  You create an `nnweb' group, enter a search pattern, and then
> enter the group and read the articles like you would any normal group.
> The `G w' command in the group buffer (*note Foreign Groups) will do
> this in an easy-to-use fashion.
>
> [snip]
>
>    You must have the `url' and `W3' package or those alternatives (try
> `customize-group' on the `mm-url' variable group) installed to be able
> to use `nnweb'.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------



Rodolfo wrote:

> I installed emacs-w3m and also the `url' package,
> but the message gnus finds with the above procedure (`G w' etcetera)
> are all completely blank.


It seems to be solved, now.
All I had to do was to update my cvs copies of emacs and gnus and put
in my ~/.gnus.el the following stuff:



(setq gnus-refer-article-method
      '(current
        (nnweb "google"
               (nnweb-type google))))


. Then, in the group buffer, I did:
`G w RET <search string> RET'
an Gnus displayed the message(s) corrispondent to the search string.
Many kind thanks to Tassilo and all the other posters in the present thread.

But now:
suppose I want to continue an old thread:
I can fetch it with the above procedure, but how can I follow it up to the
gnu.emacs.gnus newsgroup?
If I do `S n' (or `S N') in the Article buffer and then try to send it with
`C-c C-c', gnus says:

Sending...
Really use this possibly unknown group: gnu.emacs.gnus? (y or n) 
Sending news via m2lkugcom8.fsf-ephemeral using nnweb...
nnweb-request-post not implemented
Couldn't send message via news: nnweb-request-post not implemented

. Is it possible, and how, to send a follow up to an old message displayed
with `nnweb' mode?
It is clear that one wants to fetch old messages via gnus in order to:
1) store them;
2) maybe continue them.

Any ideas?
Thanks,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> It seems to be solved, now.
> All I had to do was to update my cvs copies of emacs and gnus and put
> in my ~/.gnus.el the following stuff:
>
> (setq gnus-refer-article-method
>       '(current
>         (nnweb "google"
>                (nnweb-type google))))
>
>
> . Then, in the group buffer, I did:
> `G w RET <search string> RET'
> an Gnus displayed the message(s) corrispondent to the search string.

Could you please try I fetching old messages by pressing RET on a
message-id or with ^ in Summary buffer works, too?

That's the thing which doesn't work for me...

> But now:
> suppose I want to continue an old thread:
> I can fetch it with the above procedure, but how can I follow it up to the
> gnu.emacs.gnus newsgroup?
> If I do `S n' (or `S N') in the Article buffer and then try to send it with
> `C-c C-c', gnus says:

Why `S n' or `S N' and not `f' or `F', since you didn't get the message
by mail but by news?

,----[ (info "(gnus)Summary Post Commands") ]
| `S f'
| `f'
|      Post a followup to the current article (`gnus-summary-followup').
| 
| `S n'
|      Post a followup to the current article via news, even if you got
|      the message through mail (`gnus-summary-followup-to-mail').
`----

But that should not cause the problem, I think.

,----[ (info "(gnus)Posting Server") ]
|    When posting news, Message usually invokes `message-send-news'
| (*note News Variables: (message)News Variables.).  Normally, Gnus will
| post using the same select method as you're reading from (which might
| be convenient if you're reading lots of groups from different private
| servers).  However.  If the server you're reading from doesn't allow
| posting, just reading, you probably want to use some other server to
| post your (extremely intelligent and fabulously interesting) articles.
| You can then set the `gnus-post-method' to some other method:
| 
|      (setq gnus-post-method '(nnspool ""))
| 
|    Now, if you've done this, and then this server rejects your article,
| or this server is down, what do you do then?  To override this variable
| you can use a non-zero prefix to the `C-c C-c' command to force using
| the "current" server, to get back the default behavior, for posting.
`----

Reading that, the correct entry in your ~/.gnus.el should possibly look
like that:

(setq gnus-refer-article-method
      '(current
        (nnweb "google"
               (nnweb-type google)
               (gnus-post-method '(nntp "your.news-server.example")))))

Please replace "your.news-server.example" with the correct address (or
the select method name) and give it a try.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

> Could you please try I fetching old messages by pressing RET on a
> message-id or with ^ in Summary buffer works, too?
>
> That's the thing which doesn't work for me...


I'll let you know as soon as possible, sorry I didn't yet,
but I'm going to work...



Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

>> But now:
>> suppose I want to continue an old thread:
>> I can fetch it with the above procedure, but how can I follow it up to the
>> gnu.emacs.gnus newsgroup?
>> If I do `S n' (or `S N') in the Article buffer and then try to send it with
>> `C-c C-c', gnus says:
>
> Sending...
> Really use this possibly unknown group: gnu.emacs.gnus? (y or n) 
> Sending news via m2sloo3uj4.fsf-ephemeral using nnweb...
> nnweb-request-post not implemented
> Couldn't send message via news: nnweb-request-post not implemented


Tassilo:

> the correct entry in your ~/.gnus.el should possibly look
> like that:
>
> (setq gnus-refer-article-method
>       '(current
>         (nnweb "google"
>                (nnweb-type google)
>                (gnus-post-method '(nntp "your.news-server.example")))))
>
> Please replace "your.news-server.example" with the correct address (or
> the select method name) and give it a try.



Thanks, I did as you suggest but it doesn't work:
just as before. I replaced "your.news-server.example" with
"news.gnus.org".

Any other idea?
Cheers,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

>>> If I do `S n' (or `S N') in the Article buffer and then try to send
>>> it with `C-c C-c', gnus says:

Hey, Rodolfo is right here. If you press `F' or `f' here, Gnus sends the
follow up message to the poster by mail. `S n' / `S N' sends the follow
up to the newsgroup. Is that the way it's intended to be?

>> (setq gnus-refer-article-method
>>       '(current
>>         (nnweb "google"
>>                (nnweb-type google)
>>                (gnus-post-method '(nntp "your.news-server.example")))))
>
> Thanks, I did as you suggest but it doesn't work:

Yes, I've tested this myself. gnus-post-method's value is `current',
even if you use the snipped above. I've also tried putting `setq' in
front of gnus-post-method, but still it's `current'.

What's the right way of setting `gnus-post-method' for web group?

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo wrote:

>> But now:
>> suppose I want to continue an old thread:
>> I can fetch it with the above procedure, but how can I follow it up to the
>> gnu.emacs.gnus newsgroup?
>> If I do `S n' (or `S N') in the Article buffer and then try to send it with
>> `C-c C-c', gnus says:
>
> Sending...
> Really use this possibly unknown group: gnu.emacs.gnus? (y or n) 
> Sending news via m2sloo3uj4.fsf-ephemeral using nnweb...
> nnweb-request-post not implemented
> Couldn't send message via news: nnweb-request-post not implemented


Tassilo wrote:

> the correct entry in your ~/.gnus.el should possibly look
> like that:
>
> (setq gnus-refer-article-method
>       '(current
>         (nnweb "google"
>                (nnweb-type google)
>                (gnus-post-method '(nntp "your.news-server.example")))))
>
> Please replace "your.news-server.example" with the correct address (or
> the select method name) and give it a try.



Rodolfo:

>> Thanks, I did as you suggest but it doesn't work:
>> just as before. I replaced "your.news-server.example" with
>> "news.gnus.org".


Tassilo:

> Yes, I've tested this myself. gnus-post-method's value is `current',
> even if you use the snipped above. I've also tried putting `setq' in
> front of gnus-post-method, but still it's `current'.
>
> What's the right way of setting `gnus-post-method' for web group?



It seems to be solved now:
whan you send the message, instead of `C-c C-c' do: `C-u 0 C-c C-c':
Gnus will prompt you for a gnus-post-method. Type `news.gnus.org',
or whatever the server  you use to read the gnu.emacs.gnus newsgroup,
and the message will correctly be sent.
I did so, and it worked.
I want now to summarize the whole matter: please correct if something's wrong.



-------------------------------------------------------------
How to fetch old messages and in case continue them with gnus
-------------------------------------------------------------

1) If you don't have it, install a cvs version of Emacs and a cvs version
   of Gnus; if you already have them, update them both;
   I also tried to install the W3 and url packages, although I don't
   know if it's really necessary (I will check);

2) put in your ~/.gnus.el the following stuff:

   (setq gnus-refer-article-method
      '(current
        (nnweb "google"
               (nnweb-type google))))

3) first, search for the article you're looking for the usual way, i.e.
   doing `M-^ <message-ID>' in the gnu.emacs.gnus summary buffer; 
   if it has been canceled from the group, gnus will not find it: 
   then, from the group buffer do: `G w RET <search string> RET',
   where 'search string' might be the article's subject, or its ID,
   or anything else able to find it: if it's in the google groups archives
   gnus will then find and display it;

4) with `B c' on the message, copy it into a new group (say it 
   `interesting-messages')
   you had already created doing `G m' in the group buffer;

5) if all you wanted was to store the article, you've done;
   if you want to reply to it, first open up your server;
   then go to article you've stored and hit `S N'; when you send you reply 
   to gnu.emacs.gnus, 
   instead of  `C-c C-c' do: `C-u 0 C-c C-c': Gnus will prompt you for a 
   gnus-post-method. 
   Type `news.gnus.org', or whatever the server  you use to read the 
   gnu.emacs.gnus 
   newsgroup will be, and the message will correctly be sent.




. Cheers,
Rodolfo

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

>> What's the right way of setting `gnus-post-method' for web group?
>
> It seems to be solved now:
> whan you send the message, instead of `C-c C-c' do: `C-u 0 C-c C-c':
> Gnus will prompt you for a gnus-post-method. Type `news.gnus.org',

Hey, not bad. Not as optimal as setting `gnus-post-method'
automatically, but I can live with that.

> I want now to summarize the whole matter: please correct if
> something's wrong.

Looks ok to me.

Regards,
Tassilo
-- 
A child of five could understand this! Fetch me a child of five!

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

>> It seems to be solved, now.
>> All I had to do was to update my cvs copies of emacs and gnus and put
>> in my ~/.gnus.el the following stuff:
>>
>> (setq gnus-refer-article-method
>>       '(current
>>         (nnweb "google"
>>                (nnweb-type google))))
>>
>>
>> . Then, in the group buffer, I did:
>> `G w RET <search string> RET'
>> an Gnus displayed the message(s) corrispondent to the search string.
>


Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

> Could you please try I fetching old messages by pressing RET on a
> message-id or with ^ in Summary buffer works, too?
>
> That's the thing which doesn't work for me...




Hi, Tassilo:

by pressing RET on a message-id *nothing* happens;
hitting ^ on an article in the nntp+news.gnus.org:gnu.emacs.gnus 
summary buffer, the previous message is opened;
with `M-^ <message-id>' in the nntp+news.gnus.org:gnu.emacs.gnus
(maybe you meant that, not `^'?),
the following is written in the Messages buffer:

Opening nnweb server on google...done
Loading url-auth...done
Contacting host: www.google.com:80
Loading url-cache...done
Contacting host: groups.google.com:80 [2 times]
Requested article not found
Generating summary...done
Fetched article <97a048c6.0409120237.7ad4c627@posting.google.com>
No such article (may have expired or been canceled)



. Bye,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> by pressing RET on a message-id *nothing* happens;

Weird. Here I get an blank message...

> hitting ^ on an article in the nntp+news.gnus.org:gnu.emacs.gnus 
> summary buffer, the previous message is opened;
> with `M-^ <message-id>' in the nntp+news.gnus.org:gnu.emacs.gnus
> (maybe you meant that, not `^'?),

I meant hitting `^' on an article whos parent is not available anymore,
so that this has to be fetched.

> the following is written in the Messages buffer:
>
> Opening nnweb server on google...done
> Loading url-auth...done
> Contacting host: www.google.com:80
> Loading url-cache...done
> Contacting host: groups.google.com:80 [2 times]
> Requested article not found
> Generating summary...done
> Fetched article <97a048c6.0409120237.7ad4c627@posting.google.com>
> No such article (may have expired or been canceled)

In <87psjuu1v6.fsf@baldur.nicundtas.de> I described the same
behavior. But now I'm running out of ideas...

I'd like to know if there's anyone for whom nnweb (google) fully works.

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
98% of us Americans are hard-working people. It's the other 2% that give
us a bad reputation. Then again, we did elect them.

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

> Could you please try I fetching old messages by pressing RET on a
> message-id or with ^ in Summary buffer works, too?
>
> That's the thing which doesn't work for me...



Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

>
> [snip]
>


Tassilo:

> In <87psjuu1v6.fsf@baldur.nicundtas.de> I described the same
> behavior. But now I'm running out of ideas...
>
> I'd like to know if there's anyone for whom nnweb (google) fully works.



Well, but now we can fecth old articles with `G w', so it's
not so important... ;)

Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> Well, but now we can fecth old articles with `G w', so it's not so
> important... ;)

I wouldn't say that. The nnweb use case I need most frequently is that I
have a follow up to a locally expired article in my summary buffer.

,----[ *Summary of some.group* ]
| | Rodolfo Medina | ~> Re: foo bar bla blubb
`----

Normally I would press `^' on this article and nnweb would fetch the
(locally expired) parent at google or gmane and place the result into
the current summary buffer. 

Killing the message-id, going to *Group* and doing `G w RET C-y RET'
takes much more time and is far off convenient.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

>> Well, but now we can fecth old articles with `G w', so it's not so
>> important... ;)




Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

> I wouldn't say that. The nnweb use case I need most frequently is that I
> have a follow up to a locally expired article in my summary buffer.
>
> ,----[ *Summary of some.group* ]
> | | Rodolfo Medina | ~> Re: foo bar bla blubb
> `----
>
> Normally I would press `^' on this article and nnweb would fetch the
> (locally expired) parent at google or gmane and place the result into
> the current summary buffer. 
>
> Killing the message-id, going to *Group* and doing `G w RET C-y RET'
> takes much more time and is far off convenient.



All right, I see.
Then, if you ever come to a solution, please post it
in the present thread...

Cheers,
Rodolfo

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Rodolfo,

> Then, if you ever come to a solution, please post it in the present
> thread...

Sure!

Bye,
Tassilo
-- 
"Emacs is not a development tool but a way of life."
     - David Kastrup in alt.religion.emacs -

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Rodolfo Medina]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

> It seems to be solved, now.


... but with a "little" problem:
all emails appearing in messages are partially hidden by google:
e.g., in place of `rodolfo.medina@gmail.com' you will see:
`rodolfo.med...@gmail.com'.
This way, some important information included in the message are
lost, because the cut is done every time the symbol `@' appears.

Any remedy to that?
Rodolfo

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Reiner Steib]

On Fri, Apr 14 2006, Rodolfo Medina wrote:

> all emails appearing in messages are partially hidden by google:
> e.g., in place of `rodolfo.medina@gmail.com' you will see:
> `rodolfo.med...@gmail.com'.
> This way, some important information included in the message are
> lost, because the cut is done every time the symbol `@' appears.
>
> Any remedy to that?

Convince Google not to cripple the articles.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

> Andreas Seltenreich <seltenreich@gmx.de> writes:
>
> Hi Andreas,
> [...]
> Can I provide any additional infos? I would volunteer to spend some time
> with testing to get this fixed (before the release, if possible).
>
> Kind regards,
> Tassilo

Would it be possible to add one extra method using external
program/script? 
[message-id passed passed as command line argument, post retrieved from
standard output of the command when exit code equlals zero ]

I personally would prefer using perl script for the task.

-- 
[pl2en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
http://anfi.homeunix.net/

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Andreas Seltenreich]

Andrzej Adam Filip schrob:

> Would it be possible to add one extra method using external
> program/script? 
> [message-id passed passed as command line argument, post retrieved from
> standard output of the command when exit code equlals zero ]
>
> I personally would prefer using perl script for the task.

I'm afraid this part of nnweb.el isn't customisable yet.

regards,
andreas

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tim X]

Tassilo Horn <heimdall@uni-koblenz.de> writes:

> Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:
>
> Hi Rodolfo,
>
>> I installed emacs-w3m and also the `url' package, but the message gnus
>> finds with the above procedure (`G w' etcetera) are all completely
>> blank.
>
> Here, too. Google has changed its format, and it's not documented
> anywhere. If you use groups.google.com's search in a browser you can see
> the new search-string, but there's no way to find out how to tell google
> to return the found article as plain-text, so that gnus can display it.
>
> Maybe one could work arround this by fetching the result's html page and
> stripping the html-tags, but that would be really hard work...
>
> It's likely that there's no API because google doesn't want that people
> use it that way. People searching for articles at google via their
> newsreaders cannot see the banners and ads...
>
> Nevertheless, I've sent a mail to google and asked if usage of
> groups.google.com in own applications is allowed, and if yes, where I
> can read how it works.
>
> Regards,
> Tassilo
> -- 
> A child of five could understand this! Fetch me a child of five!
>
>
>

Although not a great solution, you could probably use xslt to
translate the html?

Tim

-- 
tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au

Re: Problems with `nnweb' mode

[Tassilo Horn]

Tim X <timx@nospam.dev.null> writes:

Hi Tim,

> Although not a great solution, you could probably use xslt to
> translate the html?

As you can see in Andreas' postings, it seems to work for him as-is. So
it should work with nnweb.el - I only need to figure out why it doesn't
work for me. :-)

Regards,
Tassilo
-- 
My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

Re: Old messages missing on the present newsgroup

[Alan_C]

Rodolfo Medina <rodolfo.medina@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi.
> 
> Some old messages sent to the present newsgroup
> are not accessible, it seems, if I search for them via
> nntp server, whereas they're seen through web interface
> and also in the archives of the info-gnus-english@gnu.org mailing list.
> How come?

I don't know.

But in the summary or where articles are listed, I've seen missing
parent of article it is because I previously read it -- at that buffer
there is menu item "article" then "fetch parent of article"

Previously read I think are in the .newsrc file

-rw-r--r--   1 al   users        917 2006-03-22 19:36 .newsrc
-rw-r--r--   1 al   users       5589 2006-03-22 19:36 .newsrc.eld
-rw-r--r--   1 al   users       5605 2006-03-20 04:22 .newsrc.eld~
-rw-r--r--   1 al   users         71 2005-12-17 23:59 .newsrc_orig
-rw-r--r--   1 al   users        911 2006-03-20 04:22 .newsrc~

I made .newsrc_orig as a copy of a fresh .newsrc before downloading
and reading any messages.  It has only the groups:

alt.os.linux.slackware:
alt.test:
comp.lang.perl.misc:
perl.beginners:

each group with a colon at end

(I've edited .newsrc before, removing some of the message numbers
which then those messages show up again and can read again too.

I could cp .newsrc_orig .newsrc to start afresh.

-- 
Alan.