citation line above or below body?

citation line above or below body?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

When I reply to messages and cite the original, point ends up below the
citation line. This leads to weird threads, where my text ends up right
below the "so-and-so wrote:" line, and other people's mail programs
don't seem to do it that way. My message-citation-line-function is
currently set to message-insert-formatted-citation-line, and I know that
I could simply write my own citation function, but my question is: why
is it like this, and will I be breaking anything if I "fix" it?

Thanks,
Eric

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Jan 19 2011, Eric Abrahamsen wrote:

> When I reply to messages and cite the original, point ends up below the
> citation line. This leads to weird threads, where my text ends up right
> below the "so-and-so wrote:" line, and other people's mail programs
> don't seem to do it that way. 

That is the fault that leads to stupid top-posting.

> [...] but my question is: why is it like this,

It is like this, because after replying you start on top, delete the
parts you don't refer to (e.g. with `C-c C-e' ->
`message-elide-region'), and add your text after the parts you refer
to.

> and will I be breaking anything if I "fix" it?

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Gary]

Eric Abrahamsen wrote:

> When I reply to messages and cite the original, point ends up below the
> citation line. This leads to weird threads, where my text ends up right
> below the "so-and-so wrote:" line

What do you mean? That you then type where the cursor is? You can always
move it down, you know :) In fact I would encourage you to do
so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style is, of
course, the one true posting style, because

A) Is is much easier to understand the conversation flow [subjective];

B) It "keeps the quotes and their replies close to each other and in
logical reading order"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Choosing_the_proper_posting_style)
and so is better suited to small screens, e.g. mobile devices, which are
increasingly becoming the preferred method of net access for a lot of
people; and

C) It "encourages trimming of the quoted material to the bare minimum"
(same source) and so can save on bandwidth for the recipient(s) (see B,
above, as to why this is important)

-- 
Gary        Please do NOT send me 'courtesy' replies off-list.

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Philipp Haselwarter]

"G" == Gary  <gnus@garydjones.name> writes:

G> Eric Abrahamsen wrote:

>> When I reply to messages and cite the original, point ends up below
>> the citation line. This leads to weird threads, where my text ends up
>> right below the "so-and-so wrote:" line

G> What do you mean? That you then type where the cursor is? You can
G> always move it down, you know :) In fact I would encourage you to do
G> so.

That's the point. Moving down manually every time is a bit of a pain if
you just want to quote and start typing.

---8<---[snipped 19 lines]---8<---


-- 
Philipp Haselwarter

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

On Fri, Jan 21 2011, Philipp Haselwarter wrote:

> "G" == Gary  <gnus@garydjones.name> writes:
>
> G> Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
>
>>> When I reply to messages and cite the original, point ends up below
>>> the citation line. This leads to weird threads, where my text ends up
>>> right below the "so-and-so wrote:" line
>
> G> What do you mean? That you then type where the cursor is? You can
> G> always move it down, you know :) In fact I would encourage you to do
> G> so.
>
> That's the point. Moving down manually every time is a bit of a pain if
> you just want to quote and start typing.

Actually, watching this thread in action, I realized what the difference
is: for news-type threads, where there's a back-and-forth on specific
points, the interleaved style is best (good to know these terms). In
this case, gnus' behavior is fine, and point is left in an appropriate
place, since I'm going to need to manually move it down to the spot I
want to reply to, anyway.

For more email-type threads, I want to top-post (the term I should have
used in my original message), because my personal correspondence is much
more traditional letter-style. I'm not rebutting them point-for-point,
but just writing a reply. Sorry if my original message was unclear.

Guess it's time to write a custom function for
message-citation-line-function!

Thanks,
Eric

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Gary]

Philipp Haselwarter wrote:

> "G" == Gary writes:
>
> G> Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
>
>>> When I reply to messages and cite the original, point ends up below
>>> the citation line. This leads to weird threads, where my text ends up
>>> right below the "so-and-so wrote:" line
>
> G> What do you mean? That you then type where the cursor is? You can
> G> always move it down, you know :) In fact I would encourage you to do
> G> so.
>
> That's the point. Moving down manually every time is a bit of a pain if
> you just want to quote and start typing.

Gnus isn't psychic.

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Philipp Haselwarter]

"G" == Gary  <gnus@garydjones.name> writes:

G> Philipp Haselwarter wrote:

>> "G" == Gary writes:
>> 
G> Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
>> 
>>>> When I reply to messages and cite the original, point ends up below
>>>> the citation line. This leads to weird threads, where my text ends
>>>> up right below the "so-and-so wrote:" line
>> 
G> What do you mean? That you then type where the cursor is? You can
G> always move it down, you know :) In fact I would encourage you to do
G> so.
>> 
>> That's the point. Moving down manually every time is a bit of a pain
>> if you just want to quote and start typing.

G> Gnus isn't psychic.

disagreed, sir ;)

When you're using supercite, it's no big deal:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(defun my-mv-pre-sign ()
  (when (message-mail-p)
    (message-goto-signature)
    (previous-line 3)))

(add-hook 'sc-post-hook 'my-mv-pre-sign)
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

There's probably a way to do it without using `sc-post-hook' (using
advices?), but this has the advantage of being Really Simple.

-- 
Philipp Haselwarter

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Richard Riley]

Philipp Haselwarter <philipp.haselwarter@gmx.de> writes:

> "G" == Gary  <gnus@garydjones.name> writes:
>
> G> Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
>
>>> When I reply to messages and cite the original, point ends up below
>>> the citation line. This leads to weird threads, where my text ends up
>>> right below the "so-and-so wrote:" line
>
> G> What do you mean? That you then type where the cursor is? You can
> G> always move it down, you know :) In fact I would encourage you to do
> G> so.
>
> That's the point. Moving down manually every time is a bit of a pain if
> you just want to quote and start typing.
>
> ---8<---[snipped 19 lines]---8<---

Its this way on purpose I would guess to encourage people to snip and to
review context. Some, (including you ;)), tend to snip too much. Others,
me ;), tend to not snip enough. When reading this post I didnt even
understand it at first as I thought the cursor was indeed at the end -
it isnt of course : I have been hitting M-> for so long it was second
nature!

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Philipp Haselwarter]

---8<---[snipped 27 lines: everything :p]---8<---

Well I tend to leave in just the parts I'm directly answering/referring
to, which is usually the outermost level of citation. If someone wants
to follow a thread, he can do just that - read the thread.
When the whole conversation is quoted each time, it just gets messy,
IMHO.
And as you're saying yourself Richard, people just get fed up with
having to «cherrypick» through every message and simply "M->", quoting the
whole thing.
Feel free to disagree if you prefer a different approach, I'm always
curious!

-- 
Philipp Haselwarter

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Richard Riley]

Philipp Haselwarter <philipp.haselwarter@gmx.de> writes:

> ---8<---[snipped 27 lines: everything :p]---8<---
>
> Well I tend to leave in just the parts I'm directly answering/referring
> to, which is usually the outermost level of citation. If someone wants
> to follow a thread, he can do just that - read the thread.
> When the whole conversation is quoted each time, it just gets messy,
> IMHO.

Agreed and no one said the lot should be left : hence the cursor
position at the top to encourage reread and snipping. Something I do
tend to do but forget as well , not often but it happens - as do most
people at some stage.

> And as you're saying yourself Richard, people just get fed up with
> having to «cherrypick» through every message and simply "M->", quoting the
> whole thing.

> Feel free to disagree if you prefer a different approach, I'm always
> curious!

No one would disagree that courteous snipping is a boon! Overly snipping
is a hindrance in many groups were people dont keep a local copy and
things can expire though. If any part of a reply refers to something
snipped it is, of course, somewhat annoying to have to traverse the
thread tree to see what it might be referring to.

All in all I think we agree. The main crux of my comment though, which
you snipped ;), was the part about *why* the cursor is where it is. I
think it makes sense.

In this case you oversnipped and for my comments to make sense I need to
put some context back in :-

I originally said this:-

,----
| Its this way on purpose I would guess to encourage people to snip and to
| review context.
`----

The one thing I must admit I dont like is the non standard "supercite"
or whatever its called - I find the insertion of the authors initials on
the left hand side totally non standard and very "busy on the eyes" - it
almost drags your attention away from the thread itself. But all to
their own.

regards

r.

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Eric Abrahamsen]

On Mon, Jan 24 2011, Philipp Haselwarter wrote:

> "G" == Gary  <gnus@garydjones.name> writes:
>
> G> Philipp Haselwarter wrote:
>
>>> "G" == Gary writes:
>>> 
> G> Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> When I reply to messages and cite the original, point ends up below
>>>>> the citation line. This leads to weird threads, where my text ends
>>>>> up right below the "so-and-so wrote:" line
>>> 
> G> What do you mean? That you then type where the cursor is? You can
> G> always move it down, you know :) In fact I would encourage you to do
> G> so.
>>> 
>>> That's the point. Moving down manually every time is a bit of a pain
>>> if you just want to quote and start typing.
>
> G> Gnus isn't psychic.
>
> disagreed, sir ;)
>
> When you're using supercite, it's no big deal:
>
> (defun my-mv-pre-sign ()
>   (when (message-mail-p)
>     (message-goto-signature)
>     (previous-line 3)))

For what it's worth, I ended up with this:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(setq message-citation-line-function 'my-insert-citation-line)
(defun my-insert-citation-line ()
  (message-insert-formatted-citation-line)
  (when (message-mail-p)
   (delete-backward-char 1)
   (previous-line)
   (open-line 2)))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

So far, it has worked psychically.

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi Philipp,

Philipp Haselwarter wrote:
> That's the point. Moving down manually every time is a bit of a pain if
> you just want to quote and start typing.
>
> ---8<---[snipped 19 lines]---8<---

I guess the above "elide" function is automatic. When pressing `C-h a', I see
I only have one version of it, the one (`message-elide-region') which inserts
ellipsis. How do you get a line-count?

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Damien Wyart]

* Sébastien Vauban <wxhgmqzgwmuf@spammotel.com> in gnu.emacs.gnus:
> > ---8<---[snipped 19 lines]---8<---
> I guess the above "elide" function is automatic. When pressing `C-h a', I see
> I only have one version of it, the one (`message-elide-region') which inserts
> ellipsis. How do you get a line-count?

See these messages:
http://www.mail-archive.com/info-gnus-english@gnu.org/msg06474.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/info-gnus-english@gnu.org/msg06477.html

-- 
DW

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Sivaram Neelakantan]

On Sat, Feb 26 2011,Damien Wyart wrote:

> * Sébastien Vauban <wxhgmqzgwmuf@spammotel.com> in gnu.emacs.gnus:
>> > ---8<---[snipped 19 lines]---8<---
>> I guess the above "elide" function is automatic. When pressing `C-h a', I see
>> I only have one version of it, the one (`message-elide-region') which inserts
>> ellipsis. How do you get a line-count?
>
> See these messages:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/info-gnus-english@gnu.org/msg06474.html
> http://www.mail-archive.com/info-gnus-english@gnu.org/msg06477.html

By coincidence, I'd mailed Lars to ask whether he could merge that
patch into message.el. I'd recently installed stuff on a new machine
and found that message-elide-region was not working for me.  Turns out
it's not applied to the file.


 sivaram
 -- 

Re: citation line above or below body?

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Sivaram Neelakantan <nsivaram.net@gmail.com> writes:

> By coincidence, I'd mailed Lars to ask whether he could merge that
> patch into message.el. I'd recently installed stuff on a new machine
> and found that message-elide-region was not working for me.  Turns out
> it's not applied to the file.

I've now added this to message.el.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  larsi@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen