Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Emanuel Berg]

Julien Cubizolles <j.cubizolles@free.fr> writes:

> For years now I've experienced this strange
> behaviour: running gnus-group-get-new-news or
> restarting gnus changes the status of read messages
> in nnml groups: some read messages become unread. It
> doesn't happen in the nntp and nnimap groups I'm
> using.

Yeah, I've experienced things like that many times, I
haven't been able to deduct if it has happened
exclusively for nnml though.

I can't help you any better than offer some thoughts
and observations, that contain a couple of questions as
well. If more knowledgable people will answer those,
perhaps that'll help us both.

I always thought that happened because the .newsrc.eld
file wasn't saved, so sometimes the changes would
vanish when you terminate Emacs. It is just a theory. I
would think it best for the .newsrc.eld be saved every
time there is a change, so that it is always 100%
consistent with what you see and do in Gnus. I have put
the varieties of (gnus-summary-save-newsrc t) here and
there but I haven't covered every scenario. And yes, it
is a bit spooky - to have 100% self-confidence when
working with a computer, you must be 100% confident
that the machine is 100% reliable and deterministic...
It is not often, but sometimes I feel Gnus isn't, and
that sometimes isn't pleasant. But I haven't ruled out
that the error is with me or my
configuration/extension. Only it is very difficult to
reproduce those occasions, so I don't think I'll find
out anytime soon, either.

Anyway, nnml and nntp, what I can see metadata for both
are stored in .newsrc.eld. I have this:

(setq gnus-use-dribble-file nil)
(setq gnus-always-read-dribble-file nil)
(setq gnus-read-newsrc-file nil)
(setq gnus-save-newsrc-file nil)
(setq gnus-startup-file (format "%s.newsrc" gnus-directory))

The last line should tell you where to look
(`describe-variable', if you don't set it explicitly).
Are your changes to nnml reflected in that file? But
this isn't pleasant to debug - too many digits...

For nntp, there is also, for example,
~/News/marks/Aioe.org/gnu/emacs/gnus - that deals with
marks, though what it seems not what has been read and
not read. I wonder though, why this is kept in parallel
with the .newsrc.eld file?

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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Adam Sjøgren]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Julien Cubizolles <j.cubizolles@free.fr> writes:

>> For years now I've experienced this strange behaviour: running
>> gnus-group-get-new-news or restarting gnus changes the status of read
>> messages in nnml groups: some read messages become unread. It doesn't
>> happen in the nntp and nnimap groups I'm using.

> Yeah, I've experienced things like that many times, I haven't been
> able to deduct if it has happened exclusively for nnml though.

Weird, I never see that. I wonder what the difference is. The only
"weird" thing I can think of in my setup is that I don't use the agent.

Can either of you reproduce the problem?

> I always thought that happened because the .newsrc.eld file wasn't
> saved, so sometimes the changes would vanish when you terminate Emacs.

Do you quit Gnus before stopping Emacs?

> I would think it best for the .newsrc.eld be saved every time there is
> a change

(If you want to maximize disk-I/O :-))

[...]

> (setq gnus-use-dribble-file nil)

You have explicitly turned off Gnus' defence against crashes and
unforseen events!


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
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  But they were all upside down"                         asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Julien Cubizolles]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:
>
>> Julien Cubizolles <j.cubizolles@free.fr> writes:
>
>>> For years now I've experienced this strange behaviour: running
>>> gnus-group-get-new-news or restarting gnus changes the status of read
>>> messages in nnml groups: some read messages become unread. It doesn't
>>> happen in the nntp and nnimap groups I'm using.
>
>> Yeah, I've experienced things like that many times, I haven't been
>> able to deduct if it has happened exclusively for nnml though.
>
> Weird, I never see that. I wonder what the difference is. The only
> "weird" thing I can think of in my setup is that I don't use the agent.

I use it to, but not for nnml groups.

> Can either of you reproduce the problem?

I just changed some settings regarding the dribble file. I'll check if
things improve.


> Do you quit Gnus before stopping Emacs?
Yes, through:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(defun exit-gnus-on-exit ()
  (if (and (fboundp 'gnus-group-exit)
	   (gnus-alive-p))
      (with-current-buffer (get-buffer "*Group*")
	(let (gnus-interactive-exit)
	  (gnus-group-exit)))))

(add-hook 'kill-emacs-hook 'exit-gnus-on-exit)
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Julien Cubizolles]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:


> I always thought that happened because the .newsrc.eld
> file wasn't saved, so sometimes the changes would
> vanish when you terminate Emacs. 

For me it's very often very old messages that spring back to life, not
the ones read in the last session. Maybe it's some dribble-file
conflict, I'll try to remove it altogether.

> (setq gnus-use-dribble-file nil)
> (setq gnus-always-read-dribble-file nil)
> (setq gnus-read-newsrc-file nil)
> (setq gnus-save-newsrc-file nil)

Digging through my setup I noticed that I had a
(setq gnus-always-read-dribble-file nil)
hidden somewhere. I'll see what removing it does.

> For nntp, there is also, for example,
> ~/News/marks/Aioe.org/gnu/emacs/gnus - that deals with
> marks, though what it seems not what has been read and
> not read. I wonder though, why this is kept in parallel
> with the .newsrc.eld file?

So far I haven't noticed any problems with nntp, as long as it isn't
broken for me I won't fix it...

Julien.

Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Julien Cubizolles]

Julien Cubizolles <j.cubizolles@free.fr> writes:


> Digging through my setup I noticed that I had a
> (setq gnus-always-read-dribble-file nil)
> hidden somewhere. I'll see what removing it does.

It didn't help. Now I'm thinking of somehow cleaning the newsrc.eld file
and/org the agent files. Is there a recommended way to do that without
losing the list of subscriptions, the Topic settings and so one. Maybe
export some stuff out to a regular .el file. Does that make sense ?

Julien.


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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> Weird, I never see that. I wonder what the difference
> is. The only "weird" thing I can think of in my setup
> is that I don't use the agent.
>
> Can either of you reproduce the problem?

No, like I said, I can't and I haven't tried because
there are too many variables - the mail files, the
metadata files, and what you see in all the Gnus
buffers...

>> I always thought that happened because the
>> .newsrc.eld file wasn't saved, so sometimes the
>> changes would vanish when you terminate Emacs.
>
> Do you quit Gnus before stopping Emacs?

No, I always assumed Emacs would tell Gnus to save and
terminate. Man, come to think of it, I don't even stop
Emacs, I run a shell command from Emacs (shutdown) to
shut down the whole system. Perhaps that's why!

>> I would think it best for the .newsrc.eld be saved
>> every time there is a change
>
> (If you want to maximize disk-I/O :-))

Yeah, but that's cool, I don't do that many things with
that many posts anyway. And computers including the
lowest-level hardware are quick these days.

>> (setq gnus-use-dribble-file nil)
>
> You have explicitly turned off Gnus' defence against
> crashes and unforseen events!

I know, we discussed this already. My Debian is like a
Swiss watch - and I'm not talking those knockoffs sold
by gorgeous Thai wenches here!

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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Adam Sjøgren]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

>> Do you quit Gnus before stopping Emacs?

> No, I always assumed Emacs would tell Gnus to save and terminate.

It doesn't.

> Man, come to think of it, I don't even stop Emacs, I run a shell
> command from Emacs (shutdown) to shut down the whole system. Perhaps
> that's why!

It most probably will cause you problems from time to time, yes.

I think we can rule out that your problems and Julien's problems have
the same cause.

>>> I would think it best for the .newsrc.eld be saved every time there
>>> is a change

>> (If you want to maximize disk-I/O :-))

> Yeah, but that's cool, I don't do that many things with that many
> posts anyway. And computers including the lowest-level hardware are
> quick these days.

So why did you turn off the dribble-file, which conceptually does what
you are saying you want?

>> You have explicitly turned off Gnus' defence against crashes and
>> unforseen events!

> I know, we discussed this already. My Debian is like a Swiss watch

Yeah, but you are pulling the rug out under Gnus, like, every time you
turn your computer off.

So, the unforseen event in this case is located around 40 cm's from the
screen. Or some meters from the projection on your wall.

In summary:

 a) Always quit Gnus before closing down Emacs

 b) Don't turn off the dribble-file, unless you have a really, really
    good reason (i.e. don't)


  Best regards,

    Adam

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                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>> No, I always assumed Emacs would tell Gnus to save
>> and terminate.
>
> It doesn't.

Perhaps there is a hook that is executed when Emacs
quits, which can be made to have the .newsrc.eld file
saved. But this would be a no-issue if that file was
always consistent with the state of what you see, which
I believe is desirable in principle as well. It would
be a nice option, if not everyone agrees...

>> Man, come to think of it, I don't even stop Emacs, I
>> run a shell command from Emacs (shutdown) to shut
>> down the whole system. Perhaps that's why!
>
> It most probably will cause you problems from time to
> time, yes.

I'll write a defun to terminate Emacs which will before
that Gnus, and then invoke the shell command.

> I think we can rule out that your problems and
> Julien's problems have the same cause.

Especially since he said he had (very) old messages
reappearing, I never had that.

> So why did you turn off the dribble-file, which
> conceptually does what you are saying you want?

In the help, it says:

    If Emacs should crash without saving the .newsrc
    files, complete information can be restored from
    the dribble file.

But Emacs never crashes for me, neither in software or
for external reasons like power failure or whatever. I
don't need that kind of backup system.

> Yeah, but you are pulling the rug out under Gnus,
> like, every time you turn your computer off.

Yeah, in effect that could have been what has happened.
But this happens not often, which means my efforts to
save the newsrc file must have been to a great extent
successful. To a great extent - but not entirely. I
don't know where it fails but shutting down the system
in the way just described will at least compensate by
always saving the newsrc file at shutdown.

> So, the unforseen event in this case is located around
> 40 cm's from the screen. Or some meters from the
> projection on your wall.

That's very, very common.

> b) Don't turn off the dribble-file, unless you have a
> really, really good reason (i.e. don't)

Like I said, I want the main file always to be
consistent and I'm not worried about a crash.

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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Adam Sjøgren]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Perhaps there is a hook that is executed when Emacs quits, which can
> be made to have the .newsrc.eld file saved.

Yes, that is what Julien showed that he is doing.

> But Emacs never crashes for me, neither in software or for external
> reasons like power failure or whatever. I don't need that kind of
> backup system.

Except that you are manually doing the equivalent every time you turn
off your computer.

So you are actually one of the people who need it the most.

Also, you wanted .newsrc.eld to be saved on every change; that is the
net result of using the dribble-file.

Why do you want to not use it? Your "my system is invincible" is not a
convincing argument.


  Best regards,

    Adam

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                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> Except that you are manually doing the equivalent
> every time you turn off your computer.
>
> So you are actually one of the people who need it the
> most.

Not anymore, because thanks to this discussion I've
change that:

(defun gnus-runs ()
  (get-buffer "*Group*") )

(defun gnus-save-if-runs ()
  (if (gnus-runs) (gnus-save-newsrc-file t)) ) ; FORCE

(defun shut ()
  (interactive)
  (gnus-save-if-runs)
  (shell-command "shut") )

("shut" is a zsh alias for 'shutdown -h now -F'.)
  
> Also, you wanted .newsrc.eld to be saved on every
> change; that is the net result of using the
> dribble-file.

Really? Then I'll start using it.

> Why do you want to not use it? Your "my system is
> invincible" is not a convincing argument.

Why not? In the help, the reason given for using is to
protect from a system crash.

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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Adam Sjøgren]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> (defun gnus-runs ()
>   (get-buffer "*Group*") )
>
> (defun gnus-save-if-runs ()
>   (if (gnus-runs) (gnus-save-newsrc-file t)) ) ; FORCE
>
> (defun shut ()
>   (interactive)
>   (gnus-save-if-runs)
>   (shell-command "shut") )

I think you can arrive at a better solution if you look at Julien's (or
Carlos') hook.

I.e. run the command that actually tells Gnus to close down, instead of
explicitly calling a function to save the one file you happen know
should be handled when shutting down (what if Gnus needs to do more
now/in the future?)


  Best regards,

    Adam

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                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Adam Sjøgren]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

>> Why do you want to not use it? Your "my system is invincible" is not
>> a convincing argument.

> Why not? In the help, the reason given for using is to protect from a
> system crash.

I think you have provided evidence of how an invincible system can turn
out not to be?


  Best regards,

    Adam

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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> I think you can arrive at a better solution if you
> look at Julien's (or Carlos') hook.

No, I don't like hooks. I had tons of hooks in my early
Elisp days, now I've managed to remove all but all of
them. I think functions are much more predictable and
robust, and more manageable to use and change.

> I.e. run the command that actually tells Gnus to
> close down, instead of explicitly calling a function
> to save the one file you happen know should be
> handled when shutting down (what if Gnus needs to do
> more now/in the future?)

I'm not worried about that.

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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Adam Sjøgren]

Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>> I think you can arrive at a better solution if you look at Julien's
>> (or Carlos') hook.

> No, I don't like hooks.

Ok, I was unclear: I did not mean to suggest you USE the hooks
presented, just that you LOOk at them for inspiration on how to close
down Gnus in a better way than what your code does.

Which is what I tried to explain in the next paragraph:

>> I.e. run the command that actually tells Gnus to close down, instead
>> of explicitly calling a function to save the one file you happen know
>> should be handled when shutting down (what if Gnus needs to do more
>> now/in the future?)

> I'm not worried about that.

Ok, I give up.


  :-),

   Adam

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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>>> I.e. run the command that actually tells Gnus to
>>> close down, instead of explicitly calling a
>>> function to save the one file you happen know
>>> should be handled when shutting down (what if Gnus
>>> needs to do more now/in the future?)
>
>> I'm not worried about that.
>
> Ok, I give up.

No, I actually changed that. However, then you have to
do another thing, namely:

(setq gnus-expert-user t)

otherwise it'll prompt you if you really want to "quit
reading news" :) Of course, you never want to do that,
but sometimes you need to quit Emacs and shut down your
system just the same.

Thing is, I had

(setq gnus-novice-user nil)

already, as well as

(setq gnus-verbose 1)
(setq gnus-verbose-backends 1)

though those only set Gnus (not) talking, without
touching what to ask of the user.

So I didn't know not only you could opt-out being a
beginner, you can explicitly be an expert as well.

More specifically you can get away with the
confirmation on exit with `gnus-interactive-exit'.

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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> I think you have provided evidence of how an
> invincible system can turn out not to be?

But: had I used the dribble file, I wouldn't have had
the problem to begin with, so I wouldn't have learned
about Emacs not telling Gnus to quit, nor of
`gnus-alive-p', or `gnus-save-newsrc-file'. It is like
getting a fracture in you right forearm. While you have
the arm in plaster, your skills with your left hand
increases. When you remove the plaster (actually after
much more time than that) the bone in the right is much
stronger (at least around the healed fracture). It is
the same with programming. If you are active with
computers you run into problems, so you add more
activity to solve those, and the beat goes on...

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Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Carlos Pita]

>>> Do you quit Gnus before stopping Emacs?
>
>> No, I always assumed Emacs would tell Gnus to save and terminate.
>
> It doesn't.

Won't save your gnus from extreme forms of death but if you gently kill
your emacs this would reduce the chances of losing your state:

(add-hook 'kill-emacs-hook
          (lambda ()
            (if (gnus-alive-p)                 
                (gnus-group-exit))))

Cheers
--
Carlos

Re: read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Emanuel Berg]

Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita@gmail.com> writes:

> (gnus-alive-p)

Thanks, I'll replace my homebrewed check with that.

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read messages becoming unread in nnml

[Julien Cubizolles]

For years now I've experienced this strange behaviour: running
gnus-group-get-new-news or restarting gnus changes the status of read
messages in nnml groups: some read messages become unread. It doesn't
happen in the nntp and nnimap groups I'm using.

Any ideas about what's causing this and how to fix it ?

Julien.


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