alt-tab? really? you're joking...

alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

I've pretty much settled into Gnus now, to the point where everything
else feels silly, so I thought I'd start adding BBDB integration.

It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB.  That's
just...amazing.  Really.  The fact that Emacs and BBDB come from a
UNIX-centric world doesn't begin to explain that, since MS-Windows is
not the only platform where that's used for windows switching.  It's
also true in WindowMaker (which I use), KDE, Gnome, and if I remember
correctly, CDE (which kills any idea that maybe they were only thinking
of commercial UNIX).

And the Info docs say that you can't rebind it.

I did find an example online of how you might rebind the key for
Wanderlust, but the example seemed fairly specific to Wanderlust.

What's the typical way Gnus users get around this these days?  Also, I
should note that I'm running BBDB 2.35 and not the new 3.x rewrite,
since the web site warns loudly that it's alpha alpha alpha!  (Should I
be running 3.x anyway?)

Really...even in the 1990's, in the days of HPUX/CDE workstations and
Motif X11 toolkits...Alt-Tab?  Really?  When was that ever a good idea
for an application key binding?

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Charles Philip Chan]

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On 22 Jan 2015, ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp wrote:

> I've pretty much settled into Gnus now, to the point where everything
> else feels silly, so I thought I'd start adding BBDB integration.
>
> It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB.  That's
> just...amazing.  Really.

I have always just use TAB and it works for completing bbdb addresses.

> What's the typical way Gnus users get around this these days?  Also, I
> should note that I'm running BBDB 2.35 and not the new 3.x rewrite,
> since the web site warns loudly that it's alpha alpha alpha!  (Should
> I be running 3.x anyway?)

bbdb3 is very stable.

Charles

-- 
Linux is obsolete
(Andrew Tanenbaum)

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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> I've pretty much settled into Gnus now, to the point where everything
> else feels silly, so I thought I'd start adding BBDB integration.
>
> It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB.  That's
> just...amazing.  Really.  The fact that Emacs and BBDB come from a
> UNIX-centric world doesn't begin to explain that, since MS-Windows is
> not the only platform where that's used for windows switching.  It's
> also true in WindowMaker (which I use), KDE, Gnome, and if I remember
> correctly, CDE (which kills any idea that maybe they were only thinking
> of commercial UNIX).
>
> And the Info docs say that you can't rebind it.
>
> I did find an example online of how you might rebind the key for
> Wanderlust, but the example seemed fairly specific to Wanderlust.
>
> What's the typical way Gnus users get around this these days?  Also, I
> should note that I'm running BBDB 2.35 and not the new 3.x rewrite,
> since the web site warns loudly that it's alpha alpha alpha!  (Should I
> be running 3.x anyway?)
>
> Really...even in the 1990's, in the days of HPUX/CDE workstations and
> Motif X11 toolkits...Alt-Tab?  Really?  When was that ever a good idea
> for an application key binding?

You seem to be very confused.  

The key binding for name completion is Meta Tab, M-TAB, 
not Alt Tab A-TAB.

Perhaps your keyboard is ill-configured too.

You should ask advice on how to map a meta- modifier key disctinct from
the alt- modifier key (if you needed the later at all)


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                 http://www.informatimago.com/
“The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a
dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to
keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk
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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

"Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes:

> You seem to be very confused.  

Probably...

> The key binding for name completion is Meta Tab, M-TAB, 
> not Alt Tab A-TAB.
>
> Perhaps your keyboard is ill-configured too.
>
> You should ask advice on how to map a meta- modifier key disctinct from
> the alt- modifier key (if you needed the later at all)

I do know about the history of Emacs and Lisp...and space cadet
keyboards, and the Meta, Super, Hyper keys...

But really...  On a modern x86 Intel-based PC (which is what probably
over 90% of users running Emacs today are using), "Meta" is your Alt
key.  We can all swear an oath to always call it Meta out of deference
to Richard Stallman and very expensive rackmount machines in the 70's
that were purpose-built to run Lisp, but...oh come on, it's your Alt
key, right?

The real gist of my question was that one's window manager (kwin,
WindowMaker, etc.) will almost certainly just think of Alt as Alt, and
won't care for what historical reason Emacs wants Alt-Tab (um, Meta-Tab).

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes:
>
>> You seem to be very confused.  
>
> Probably...
>
>> The key binding for name completion is Meta Tab, M-TAB, 
>> not Alt Tab A-TAB.
>>
>> Perhaps your keyboard is ill-configured too.
>>
>> You should ask advice on how to map a meta- modifier key disctinct from
>> the alt- modifier key (if you needed the later at all)
>
> I do know about the history of Emacs and Lisp...and space cadet
> keyboards, and the Meta, Super, Hyper keys...
>
> But really...  On a modern x86 Intel-based PC (which is what probably
> over 90% of users running Emacs today are using), "Meta" is your Alt
> key.  We can all swear an oath to always call it Meta out of deference
> to Richard Stallman and very expensive rackmount machines in the 70's
> that were purpose-built to run Lisp, but...oh come on, it's your Alt
> key, right?
>
> The real gist of my question was that one's window manager (kwin,
> WindowMaker, etc.) will almost certainly just think of Alt as Alt, and
> won't care for what historical reason Emacs wants Alt-Tab (um, Meta-Tab).

On modern keyboards, you have 10 modifier keys.

You can map, for example:

! Control 
! Shift                                                Shift
! Multi_key Alt  Meta                Meta AltGr Hyper Control


Another option would be closer to Space Cadet: 

! Control
! Shift                                            Shift
! Hyper super Meta              Control Meta super Hyper




-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                 http://www.informatimago.com/
“The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a
dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to
keep the man from touching the equipment.” -- Carl Bass CEO Autodesk
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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Charles Philip Chan]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 597 bytes --]

On 23 Jan 2015, ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp wrote:

> The real gist of my question was that one's window manager (kwin,
> WindowMaker, etc.) will almost certainly just think of Alt as Alt, and
> won't care for what historical reason Emacs wants Alt-Tab (um,
> Meta-Tab).

I use ALt as Meta. My solution is to bind all of my window management
keys to use WIN as the modifier. So there is no possible conflict with
Emacs.

Charles

-- 
"If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system."
(By Linus Torvalds)

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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Tassilo Horn]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> It seems that the key binding for name completion is M-TAB.  That's
> just...amazing.  Really.  The fact that Emacs and BBDB come from a
> UNIX-centric world doesn't begin to explain that, since MS-Windows is
> not the only platform where that's used for windows switching.

M-TAB is used for completion in dozens other places in emacs.

> What's the typical way Gnus users get around this these days?

You have 3 options:

  a) Use `ESC TAB' instead of `M-TAB'.
  b) Use some other key as Meta, e.g., the windows key commonly found on
     keyboards.
  c) Use another key for window manager window handling.

I go with option c) and use the windows key for that.  The reason is
that Alt is better to type and I use emacs keys much more often than
window manager shortcuts.

> Really...even in the 1990's, in the days of HPUX/CDE workstations and
> Motif X11 toolkits...Alt-Tab?  Really?  When was that ever a good idea
> for an application key binding?

Not sure, but I guess emacs used M-TAB for completion purposes even
before that.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

Tassilo Horn <tsdh@gnu.org> writes:

> M-TAB is used for completion in dozens other places in emacs.

Really?  I don't doubt you, but I'd never run into that before.  I've
seen lots of ordinary tab completion, but never M-TAB.

> You have 3 options:
>
>   a) Use `ESC TAB' instead of `M-TAB'.

That would work.  A little awkward, but it would work.

>   b) Use some other key as Meta, e.g., the windows key commonly found on
>      keyboards.

X11 on my system is already mapping that as "Super", and I'm already
using it that way in numerous personal key bindings.  (It's convenient
that almost nothing in Emacs seems to pre-define it for anything, so
it's been a great place to put user defined stuff.)

>   c) Use another key for window manager window handling.

Most of them will let you move their window switching key to something
else...but why should I have to?  Most Emacs apps let you change your
key bindings almost infinitely.

> Not sure, but I guess emacs used M-TAB for completion purposes even
> before that.

Yes, I'm sure that's it.  Emacs has *old* roots.

Anyway, I think my problem was that I was trying to run BBDB v2.  It
looks like the new rewritten version does completion with tab alone.

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Tassilo Horn]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

>> M-TAB is used for completion in dozens other places in emacs.
>
> Really?  I don't doubt you, but I'd never run into that before.  I've
> seen lots of ordinary tab completion, but never M-TAB.

Well, in any programming mode, `<M-tab>' runs `completion-at-point' or
`complete-symbol' which are the main completion functions in emacs.
(Actually, that's bound to `C-M-i' but that translates to `<M-tab>'
which is much easier to type.)

>> You have 3 options:
>>
>>   a) Use `ESC TAB' instead of `M-TAB'.
>
> That would work.  A little awkward, but it would work.
>
>>   b) Use some other key as Meta, e.g., the windows key commonly found on
>>      keyboards.
>
> X11 on my system is already mapping that as "Super", and I'm already
> using it that way in numerous personal key bindings.  (It's convenient
> that almost nothing in Emacs seems to pre-define it for anything, so
> it's been a great place to put user defined stuff.)

That's true, but OTOH I favor a strict separation of keys, e.g., Control
and Meta are reserved for emacs, Super is reserved for the X11 window
manager.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[incal]

Tassilo Horn <tsdh@gnu.org> writes:

> Well, in any programming mode, `<M-tab>' runs
> `completion-at-point' or `complete-symbol' which are
> the main completion functions in emacs. (Actually,
> that's bound to `C-M-i' but that translates to
> `<M-tab>' which is much easier to type.)

To me <C-M-i> isn't more difficult to type (in a way,
it is easier/better as the left index finger can
remain at <f>), and it doesn't translate to <M-tab>,
which by the way I had to configure. But now I got
suspicious: I'll remove the configuration and see if
it still works...

-- 
underground experts united

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[incal]

incal <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

>> Well, in any programming mode, `<M-tab>' runs
>> `completion-at-point' or `complete-symbol' which
>> are the main completion functions in emacs.
>> (Actually, that's bound to `C-M-i' but that
>> translates to `<M-tab>' which is much easier to
>> type.)
>
> To me <C-M-i> isn't more difficult to type (in a
> way, it is easier/better as the left index finger
> can remain at <f>), and it doesn't translate to
> <M-tab>, which by the way I had to configure. But
> now I got suspicious: I'll remove the configuration
> and see if it still works...

Without the configuration, <M-tab> translates to
<C-M-i> in the Linux VTs.

Those keys are both very good, so why have them do the
same thing? It is a waste.

For example, I use <C-M-i> to scroll a "pane" (and
<M-i> to scroll a line), and <M-tab> to switch between
buffers.

Here is how to get both keys, again in a Linux VT:

In /etc/console-setup/remap.inc

    alt keycode 15       = U+1003 # M-TAB

Then execute this function:

    lkeys () {
        sudo loadkeys --clearcompose --clearstrings \
        /etc/console-setup/remap.inc > /dev/null
    }

Last, in an Emacs init file:

    (define-key input-decode-map [?\u1003] [M-tab])

-- 
underground experts united

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Tassilo Horn]

incal <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

>> To me <C-M-i> isn't more difficult to type (in a
>> way, it is easier/better as the left index finger
>> can remain at <f>)

As many keys, that depends on your keyboard layout.  I use a German
variant of the Dvorak layout, and then `C-M-i' basically means pressing
three keys with the left hand.

> Without the configuration, <M-tab> translates to
> <C-M-i> in the Linux VTs.
>
> Those keys are both very good, so why have them do the
> same thing? It is a waste.

Because those keys are the same on older terminals.

,----[ (info "(emacs)Named ASCII Chars") ]
| <TAB>, <RET>, <BS>, <LFD>, <ESC> and <DEL> started out as names for
| certain ASCII control characters, used so often that they have special
| keys of their own.  For instance, <TAB> was another name for ‘C-i’.
| Later, users found it convenient to distinguish in Emacs between these
| keys and the “same” control characters typed with the <Ctrl> key.
| Therefore, on most modern terminals, they are no longer the same: <TAB>
| is different from ‘C-i’.
| 
|    Emacs can distinguish these two kinds of input if the keyboard does.
| It treats the “special” keys as function keys named ‘tab’, ‘return’,
| ‘backspace’, ‘linefeed’, ‘escape’, and ‘delete’.  These function keys
| translate automatically into the corresponding ASCII characters _if_
| they have no bindings of their own.  As a result, neither users nor Lisp
| programs need to pay attention to the distinction unless they care to.
| 
|    If you do not want to distinguish between (for example) <TAB> and
| ‘C-i’, make just one binding, for the ASCII character <TAB> (octal code
| 011).  If you do want to distinguish, make one binding for this ASCII
| character, and another for the “function key” ‘tab’.
| 
|    With an ordinary ASCII terminal, there is no way to distinguish
| between <TAB> and ‘C-i’ (and likewise for other such pairs), because the
| terminal sends the same character in both cases.
`----

So you may define different commands for `C-M-i' and <M-tab> but then on
a Linux VT, the `C-M-i' binding will be executed for both pressing
`C-M-i' and for "Meta+TAB".

Bye,
Tassilo


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more keys in a Linux VT (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)

[Emanuel Berg]

Tassilo Horn <tsdh@gnu.org> writes:

>>> To me <C-M-i> isn't more difficult to type (in a
>>> way, it is easier/better as the left index finger
>>> can remain at <f>)
>
> As many keys, that depends on your keyboard layout.
> I use a German variant of the Dvorak layout, and
> then `C-M-i' basically means pressing three keys
> with the left hand.

Yeah, that sucks. I used the Swedish layout many years
ago but it really sucks with programming because not
the least the Swedish chars å, ä and ö are obstructing
the much needed programming delimiters, which must be
inserted with combinations: for example, the semicolon
doesn't have a designated key. I use the compose key
for å, ä and ö, which I only need in the occasional
mail. With computers, I'm Anglo-American body and soul
by now...

>> Without the configuration, <M-tab> translates to
>> <C-M-i> in the Linux VTs. Those keys are both very
>> good, so why have them do the same thing? It is a
>> waste.
>
> Because those keys are the same on older terminals.
>
>    With an ordinary ASCII terminal, there is no way
>    to distinguish between <TAB> and ‘C-i’

OK, then the Linux VT is neither old nor ordinary
ASCII, because that is possible with the method I just
showed.

ASCII is 7 or 8 bits. Though I can't provide a
reference, my gut feeling is the Linux VT is *9 bits*.
So technically, that reference might be correct, but
in this day and age it is confusing nonetheless.

I have, as we speak, in a Linux VT with no tmux/screen
or anything on top, the following keys and commands
available with no fuss to it:

    <TAB>   as next-header
    <C-i>   as new-message
    C-M-i   as scroll-up-pane
    <M-tab> as switch-buffer [those are all custom functions]

Here is how to do it:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/remap.inc
    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/console-keys.el

> So you may define different commands for `C-M-i' and
> <M-tab> but then on a Linux VT, the `C-M-i' binding
> will be executed for both pressing `C-M-i' and for
> "Meta+TAB".

You may define different keys as well in a Linux VT,
then the commands won't collide.

-- 
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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[incal]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> It seems that the key binding for name completion is
> M-TAB.

Completion sucks anyway. Setup aliases and type the
aliases instead: style, precision, speed.

Like this:

;; For example,  for mail addresses, .mailrc  can look
;; like this:
;;
;;   alias john    "John DiFool <difool@incal.com>"
;;   alias kate    "Katherine Moss <mossy@km.com>"
;;   alias friends john kate
;;
;; For Usenet groups, setup ordinary abbrevs:
;;
;;   (let*((write  '( ... )) ; other abbrevs
;;         (groups '(("geh" "gnu.emacs.help")
;;                   ("geg" "gnu.emacs.gnus")
;;                   ; ...
;;                   ("ges" "gnu.emacs.sources")))
;;         (both (append write groups)))
;;     (define-abbrev-table 'global-abbrev-table both) )

> That's just...amazing. Really. The fact that Emacs
> and BBDB come from a UNIX-centric world doesn't
> begin to explain that, since MS-Windows is not the
> only platform where that's used for windows
> switching. It's also true in WindowMaker (which I
> use), KDE, Gnome, and if I remember correctly, CDE
> (which kills any idea that maybe they were only
> thinking of commercial UNIX).

This rant is a waste of energy - just set the keys to
whatever you want.

> And the Info docs say that you can't rebind it.

Really? Can you quote that?

-- 
underground experts united

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

incal <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:
>
>> It seems that the key binding for name completion is
>> M-TAB.
>
> Completion sucks anyway. Setup aliases and type the
> aliases instead: style, precision, speed.

All my problems went away today when I upgraded to v3.  I had been
trying to use v2, since officially the newer one is "unstable."

>> And the Info docs say that you can't rebind it.
>
> Really? Can you quote that?

http://bbdb.sourceforge.net/bbdb.html#SEC83

In bug #1, "M-TAB conflicts with ispell" (and they could have also
mentioned, the window-switching keys of half the desktop managers in
existence, but they didn't mention that), they say:

"The suggested workarounds are to rebind the ispell key (the BBDB
binding is not configurable at this time)."

It doesn't matter because I think all of this refers to v2.  BBDB v3
doesn't have a proper Info manual yet, and it tab completes with just
TAB, no M-TAB needed.

Looking forward to the v3 manual!

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[incal]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> In bug #1, "M-TAB conflicts with ispell"

That's good news, a bug can be fixed and this one
already is you just said (?).

> (and they could have also mentioned, the
> window-switching keys of half the desktop managers
> in existence, but they didn't mention that), they
> say:

"Window manager" I think if you mean openbox,
metacity, and those. But those designations are too
similar, too much intersection and "that doesn't say
much", yeah.

But that is nothing to think about, I think, the
important thing is everything is configurable the way
YOU want it. I have come across many, many variables
and settings that I don't understand why "my" value
isn't the default, but I don't care as long as I can
change it. Only for PR reasons with newcomers who are
perhaps not inclined to put hours on their systems,
which I don't mind (on the contrary), that's the only
thing, otherwise what does it matter what key it is or
function name or background color or whatever as long
as you can change it?

Isn't that the only way, and the easiest way as well,
to potentially everyone can be happy with their
software?

-- 
underground experts united

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Adam Sjøgren]

Hikaru writes:

> "The suggested workarounds are to rebind the ispell key (the BBDB
> binding is not configurable at this time)."

I don't know what "configurable" means here - when I type the beginning
of an email address in, say, the To: line and press TAB, I get
completion. This is with BBDB version 2.36.

Where in BBDB was this M-TAB business annoying you?


  Best regards,

    Adam, who had to configure alt-tab in his window manager to do as
          "everywhere else", because his colleagues got all confused
          when borrowing his keyboard/computer.

-- 
 "Archbishop of anarchy"                                      Adam Sjøgren
                                                         asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> Hikaru writes:
>
>> "The suggested workarounds are to rebind the ispell key (the BBDB
>> binding is not configurable at this time)."
>
> I don't know what "configurable" means here - when I type the beginning
> of an email address in, say, the To: line and press TAB, I get
> completion. This is with BBDB version 2.36.
>
> Where in BBDB was this M-TAB business annoying you?

Well, it's not anymore!  As I've said, I'm on v3 now.  I'm not going
back to v2 to look more at its behavior, because it's moot to me now.
Problem solved!  The "configurable" comment above is quoted from the
BBDB v2 manual.


Now, I do have another question of course (us Gnus newbies like me have
those without end, I'd imagine...):

Is there a way I can make messages that I have already expired from the
Summary buffer really disappear from view?  If I run expiry on them,
the "E" expiry marks are replaced with "G" cancelled marks.  If I run
any of the various "really delete" commands on them (such as
gnus-summary-delete-article), same thing, "G" cancelled, but still
there, even though it points to nothing.

Most surprisingly, if I run gnus-summary-reselect-current-group, a
command that's described in the manual as being just like leaving the
group and re-entering it without having to actually do that, it does
exactly the same thing -- all expired articles are still visible with
cancelled marks on them, even though if I had truly left and re-entered,
they'd be gone from my display.

Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away?  (After
all, they don't even exist anymore...)

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine
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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Winston]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> asked:
> Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away?  (After
> all, they don't even exist anymore...)

'x' ?
 -WBE

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> writes:

> Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> asked:
>> Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away?  (After
>> all, they don't even exist anymore...)
>
> 'x' ?

The reason that (gnus-summary-limit-to-unread) wouldn't work for me is
because I'm setup to display old emails in all mail groups.  I only
limit to unread in newsgroups.

So, I'd like a way to get rid of cancelled articles even while read ones
are still visible.

It's possible there may not be a way to do it, since Gnus seems strongly
biased toward treating everything as a newsgroup, and thus may assume
that you never see old articles by default, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Glyn Millington]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> writes:
>
>> Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> asked:
>>> Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away?  (After
>>> all, they don't even exist anymore...)
>>
>> 'x' ?
>
> The reason that (gnus-summary-limit-to-unread) wouldn't work for me is
> because I'm setup to display old emails in all mail groups.  I only
> limit to unread in newsgroups.
>
> So, I'd like a way to get rid of cancelled articles even while read ones
> are still visible.
>
> It's possible there may not be a way to do it, since Gnus seems strongly
> biased toward treating everything as a newsgroup, and thus may assume
> that you never see old articles by default, but I thought I'd ask
> anyway.


The 'display'  group parameter may help?

h


atb






Glyn

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Glyn Millington]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> Winston <wbe@UBEBLOCK.psr.com.invalid> writes:
>
>> Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> asked:
>>> Is there any way I can make cancelled messages just go away?  (After
>>> all, they don't even exist anymore...)
>>
>> 'x' ?
>
> The reason that (gnus-summary-limit-to-unread) wouldn't work for me is
> because I'm setup to display old emails in all mail groups.  I only
> limit to unread in newsgroups.
>
> So, I'd like a way to get rid of cancelled articles even while read ones
> are still visible.
>
> It's possible there may not be a way to do it, since Gnus seems strongly
> biased toward treating everything as a newsgroup, and thus may assume
> that you never see old articles by default, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Sorry - hit return too soon - here's the link for gnus-parameters


http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/Group-Parameters.html

atb


Glyn

Re: Immediate expiration

[Damien Wyart]

* Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> in gnu.emacs.gnus:
> Is there a way I can make messages that I have already expired from
> the Summary buffer really disappear from view?

I use (setq nnmail-expiry-wait 'immediate), and both Z G nd Z R work for
me, they make E articles disappear immediately (which I marked with E key).

I also have (setq gnus-agent-expire-all t), but I am not sure if it
comes into play.

-- 
DW

Re: Immediate expiration

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

Damien Wyart <damien.wyart@free.fr> writes:

> * Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> in gnu.emacs.gnus:
>> Is there a way I can make messages that I have already expired from
>> the Summary buffer really disappear from view?
>
> I use (setq nnmail-expiry-wait 'immediate), and both Z G nd Z R work for
> me, they make E articles disappear immediately (which I marked with E key).
>
> I also have (setq gnus-agent-expire-all t), but I am not sure if it
> comes into play.

That's it -- it's the "Z G" (gnus-summary-rescan-group) that does it.  I
have to run that after expiring to make them go away.  I may create a
function that runs gnus-summary-expire-articles-now then
gnus-summary-rescan-group on one keypress.

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[incal]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> Now, I do have another question of course (us Gnus
> newbies like me have those without end, I'd
> imagine...)

What I can tell there aren't that many Gnus newbies
around - I wish there were! - so don't be afraid
you'll flood this roup with questions or anything.

But if you want to be something more than a newbie,
the fool-proof method is acting like a professional
right away: start to write more elaborate subjects,
that are descriptive of the problem or, well subject
in short! - and not ironic in style.

And when you have a new question, start a new thread.
Or if it gradually evolved out of the old one but
still has some connection, keep the old subject like
this

    Subject: new subject (was: old subject)

That is typically done when the "new subject" needs a
quotation from the "old subject". If not, just create
a new subject.

> Is there a way I can make messages that I have
> already expired from the Summary buffer really
> disappear from view?

To me, it is easier not to bother with the expire
stuff at all. Just read the the material, or
implicitly use use `gnus-summary-mark-as-read-forward'
for what you don't want to read, and you are done. Use
`gnus-summary-tick-article-forward' for what you want
to read, only later, and for what you've read but you
want to keep, still (like a mail that contains
instructions what/how to do something). When you are
done, use `gnus-summary-mark-as-read-forward' to be
done with those, too. Here, I mention the command
names but that should be close, one-letter keystrokes,
of course...

-- 
underground experts united

new subject (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)

[Peter Münster]

On Sun, Jan 25 2015, incal wrote:

> Or if it gradually evolved out of the old one but
> still has some connection, keep the old subject like
> this
>
>     Subject: new subject (was: old subject)

Yeah, C-c C-f s !  ;)

-- 
           Peter

Re: new subject (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)

[incal]

Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> writes:

>> Or if it gradually evolved out of the old one but
>> still has some connection, keep the old subject
>> like this Subject: new subject (was: old subject)
>
> Yeah, C-c C-f s ! ;)

Indeed, however sometimes you reply to a post the old
way, and in mid-edit you realize you are talking about
something else.

Or do you have a keystroke for that as well?

Actually, I do - sort of:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/gnus/moggle.el

:)

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Re: new subject (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)

[incal]

incal <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> Indeed, however sometimes you reply to a post the
> old way, and in mid-edit you realize you are talking
> about something else.
>
> Or do you have a keystroke for that as well?

No, it is the other way around, it works the way I
thought it didn't, but it doesn't work the way I
thought it did. Yes, that makes more sense.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: new subject

[Peter Münster]

On Sun, Jan 25 2015, incal wrote:

>> Yeah, C-c C-f s ! ;)
>
> Indeed, however sometimes you reply to a post the old
> way,

Hi,

What is the old way?


> and in mid-edit you realize you are talking about something else.
> Or do you have a keystroke for that as well?

Yes: C-c C-f s. (Why "as well"?)


> Actually, I do - sort of:
>     http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/gnus/moggle.el

What is this?

Anyway, you seem to do strange things:
- When you reply to a message, Gnus usually strips the "(was: ...)"
  part. That did not happen in your reply.
- You replied to my message, but it does not appear in your
  "References:" header, so that the thread is broken.
Do you really use Gnus?

-- 
           Peter

Re: new subject

[Clemens Schüller]

Hello!

On 25. Jän. 2015 at 20:58 Peter Münster wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 25 2015, incal wrote:


>>> Yeah, C-c C-f s ! ;)
>>
>> Indeed, however sometimes you reply to a post the old
>> way,
>
> Hi,
>
> What is the old way?

I have this in my .gnus and it works very well :-)

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(defun dpi-change-subject (neues-subject)
  "introduces new subject."
  (interactive "snew Subject: ")
  (let ((case-fold-search nil))
    (goto-line 0)
    (re-search-forward "^Subject: ")
    (if (re-search-forward "R[Ee]: " nil t)
        (replace-match "")
      )
    (insert-string neues-subject)
    (insert-string " (was: ")
    (end-of-line)
    (insert-string ")")
    )
  )

(define-key message-mode-map '[(meta n)] 'dpi-change-subject)
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---



-- 
Best Regards, Clemens Schüller

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Re: new subject

[Emanuel Berg]

Clemens Schüller <cs.mlists+info-gnus@mailbox.org>
writes:

>> What is the old way?
>
> I have this in my .gnus and it works very well :-)

See Peter? My way isn't the only one old!

:)

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Re: new subject

[Peter Münster]

On Sun, Jan 25 2015, Emanuel Berg wrote:

> Clemens Schüller <cs.mlists+info-gnus@mailbox.org>
> writes:
>
>>> What is the old way?
>>
>> I have this in my .gnus and it works very well :-)
>
> See Peter?

No, not at all, sorry...
What is the old way?
What is your way?
Is incal = Emanuel Berg?
What is wrong with `message-change-subject'?

Initially, I just wanted to point you to `message-change-subject', but
now I'm confused and I don't understand what you're talking about...

-- 
           Peter


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Re: new subject

[Emanuel Berg]

Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> writes:

> Is incal = Emanuel Berg?

Yes, I'm migrating to another computer, because I have
to physically "mount" my computer every day, so I
thought I'd get a really small and light one (but
still stationary), only I discovered the new one lacks
a hardware PMC which I need for some experiments, so
now I'm "mounting" back and forth between computers -
I guess some setting fell short: it shouldn't say
"incal" which is my hacker alias (don't tell
anyone)...

> What is wrong with `message-change-subject'?

Nothing, on the contrary, that is the right way,
however since it is such an easy thing to do which you
don't do that often, I suspect there are people who
did their own Elisp to do it, and people who just do
it manually, instead of finding out there is a builtin
way to do it.

> Initially, I just wanted to point you to
> `message-change-subject'

Yes, we understood :)

    (message-change-subject NEW-SUBJECT)

    Ask for NEW-SUBJECT header, append (was: <Old Subject>).

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Re: new subject

[Emanuel Berg]

Peter Münster <pmlists@free.fr> writes:

> Anyway, you seem to do strange things: - When you
> reply to a message, Gnus usually strips the "(was:
> ...)" part. That did not happen in your reply.

Indeed:

    (setq message-subject-trailing-was-query nil) 

> - You replied to my message, but it does not appear
> in your "References:" header, so that the thread is
> broken.

Yes, if you can figure out why that happens please
tell me. I have my Gnus Elisp here:

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/gnus/

> Do you really use Gnus?

Oh, no! I'm exposed after all this time...

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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Adam Sjøgren]

Hikaru writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>> Where in BBDB was this M-TAB business annoying you?

> Well, it's not anymore!

I understand that, but TAB works for me with v2, as I explained, so I
was wondering exactly where it did not work for you. Maybe we are using
bbdb in different ways.

> As I've said, I'm on v3 now. I'm not going back to v2 to look more at
> its behavior, because it's moot to me now. Problem solved!

That's fine, I was just curious to where it didn't work for you, as it
works for me - I wasn't asking you to go back to v2, just to tell me
where it didn't work from memory.

> Is there a way I can make messages that I have already expired from the
> Summary buffer really disappear from view?

I have no idea, I have never used expiration - harddisks/SSDs have been
big enough for such a long time that I have never felt the need to
delete email.

I don't even delete spam.


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "I har jo brug for en mand til at samle det hele -           Adam Sjøgren
  inden I går endnu mere i opløsning!"                   asjo@koldfront.dk


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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Tassilo Horn]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> I don't even delete spam.

At some future point in time, you might want to come back to these cheap
VIAGRA offers? ;-)

SCNR,
Tassilo


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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Adam Sjøgren]

Tassilo writes:

> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

>> I don't even delete spam.

> At some future point in time, you might want to come back to these cheap
> VIAGRA offers? ;-)

I'm growing old, you know... ;-)

(If I miss a legitimate email that ended up in spam, and I need to find
it later, I would hate to have deleted it... slight OCD/packrat, I
suppose.)


  Best regards,

    Adam

-- 
 "Unfortunately I do not watch enough television." -          Adam Sjøgren
  Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Prime Minister of Denmark to    asjo@koldfront.dk
  Danish childrens radio.


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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Emanuel Berg]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> I don't even delete spam ...
>
> (If I miss a legitimate email that ended up in spam,
> and I need to find it later, I would hate to have
> deleted it... slight OCD/packrat, I suppose.)

There's that, which doesn't have to be a bad thing,
but also: if the mail doesn't show up anywhere, I
perceive them as virtually deleted.

If they are deleted they can still be retrieved, but
that would be uncertain and require work. Better to
know they are 100% "retrievable" and then still never
do it, anyway.

Many people form the Windows world want the Linux
(etc.) systems to be "clean", "minimalist", and so on.
This is a misconception, but I understand where it
comes from. On a Windows computer there are one
thousand things that runs in the so-called
"background" that pops up all the time, and drains
your computer of resources, and your mind of
mindfulness. However, this isn't the same as having
one thousand binaries in /usr/bin or ten thousand
mails as textfiles in ~/Mail/mail/misc - and while
removing those files will make your system less
*powerful*, it won't get any more clean or minimalist.

Just sayin' as an example, not applying to anyone in
particular.

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Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> Tassilo writes:
>
>> asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:
>
>>> I don't even delete spam.
>
>> At some future point in time, you might want to come back to these cheap
>> VIAGRA offers? ;-)
>
> I'm growing old, you know... ;-)

I only keep the really good spam emails.  There have been some classics:

"If your warrior of love is too small, you may lose this war!"

"Set your wife on fire!"

"Your manhood will fly like a white dove - independent and free."

"You look like a fat hog.  No wonder your wife sleeps alone."

"I'm on rooftop!"

"I can't believe you saved me over $500 on bags!"


And my favorite from years ago, the two-parter spam about "impudent
impudent impudent" CEO Holliday of DuPont, a trans-national scoundrel!
Impudent impudent impudent is he!

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine
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spam (was: alt-tab? really? you're joking...)

[incal]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> I only keep the really good spam emails. There have
> been some classics:
>
> "If your warrior of love is too small, you may lose
> this war!" ...

You seem to get a lot of spam. While it is mostly the
job of the server software not to propagate it, last
line of defense client-side anti-spam is something I
would like to have better.

I have the KILL file which may look like this:

    (gnus-kill "From" "\"Dealsbycm.se\"" '(gnus-summary-mark-as-read nil "X") t)
    ;; etc.
    (gnus-expunge "X")

I do like the idea of basing anti-spam on header-value
pairs (and regexps), so you can just block them off
one by one. (On the server probably something more
advanced/powerful and algorithmic is called for,
depending on volume.)

What I don't like with the KILL file solution is that
it is in code (Elisp) contrary to just have a textfile
of data.

I did some work to automatize it: it works, without
giving the impression of being rock-steady. Something
like that should definitely be added to Gnus if it
isn't already.

    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/emacs-init/gnus/lamer.el
    http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/conf/.zsh/special/gnus_kill

But I do get spam very rarely so someone must be doing
something right.

-- 
underground experts united

Re: spam

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

incal <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes:

> You seem to get a lot of spam. While it is mostly the
> job of the server software not to propagate it, last
> line of defense client-side anti-spam is something I
> would like to have better.

I've been accumulating good ones for a very long time.  Actually, I
don't get much.  I use procmail to filter it.

> But I do get spam very rarely so someone must be doing
> something right.

It's a real science, making tasteless ads look like something you need
to be reading.  :)

-- 
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
					--Thomas Paine

Re: spam

[incal]

Hikaru Ichijyo <ichijyo@macross.sdf.jp> writes:

> It's a real science, making tasteless ads look like
> something you need to be reading. :)

You can't fool everyone - but you can fool some, and
those are the ones you want to concentrate on...

-- 
underground experts united

Re: alt-tab? really? you're joking...

[incal]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> Adam, who had to configure alt-tab in his window
> manager to do as "everywhere else", because his
> colleagues got all confused when borrowing his
> keyboard/computer.

*Laughter*

I don't think it would have mattered if I borrowed my
computer to Steve Wozniak himself, he'd still have to
pick it apart piece by piece before he could make any
sense of it!

No, not really. It is just Emacs and zsh. A modified
Emacs and a modified zsh...

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