What's the difference between gnus-recent-mark and gnus-unseen-mark?

What's the difference between gnus-recent-mark and gnus-unseen-mark?

[Steven E. Harris]

Having upgraded to Oort 0.07 yesterday, I noticed that my nnimap
groups use a leading 'N' to indicate unseen messages, while the rest
of my groups still use the '.' (period). I had grown accustomed to the
more discreet '.' and find the 'N' a little noisy.

Before I force these two marks back to the same character, I'd like to
know what the difference is supposed to be. The Gnus manual alludes¹
to guns-recent-mark being determined by the back-end, while
gnus-unseen-mark is used otherwise. Why does this implementation
detail yield a different user interface?


Footnotes: 
¹ http://www.gnus.org/manual/gnus_68.html#SEC67

-- 
Steven E. Harris        :: seharris@raytheon.com
Raytheon                :: http://www.raytheon.com

Re: What's the difference between gnus-recent-mark and gnus-unseen-mark?

[Simon Josefsson]

Steven E. Harris <seharris@raytheon.com> writes:

> Having upgraded to Oort 0.07 yesterday, I noticed that my nnimap
> groups use a leading 'N' to indicate unseen messages, while the rest
> of my groups still use the '.' (period). I had grown accustomed to the
> more discreet '.' and find the 'N' a little noisy.
>
> Before I force these two marks back to the same character, I'd like to
> know what the difference is supposed to be. The Gnus manual alludes¹
> to guns-recent-mark being determined by the back-end, while
> gnus-unseen-mark is used otherwise. Why does this implementation
> detail yield a different user interface?

Because the semantics are different, so it is not only a
implementation detail.  I actually find this distinction useful, but
maybe not everyone does and it should be removed.

Example where the semantics differ: Usually I get N for new mail in
IMAP groups.  This is fine (but I could agree N is a bit noicy, what
about using `,' instead?).  When I have read IMAP mail using another
IMAP mail reader (I often read via Squirrelmail web mail) I don't get
the N but I do get a . instead.  This distinguish it from other read
mail.  Since I often postpone answering to some message until I use
gnus, this distinction allows me to locate
already-read-but-not-read-with-gnus mail.

I think there are other scenarios as well, although I don't use them.
E.g., in public folders which many people read, the \Recent mark
disappears once the first person reads the mail (probably depends on
server too).  In this case, having the . flag helps to locate "new"
mail.

Perhaps the documentation could be improved to convey this stuff in a
clearer way.  Suggestions?

Re: What's the difference between gnus-recent-mark and gnus-unseen-mark?

[Kai Großjohann]

Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

> Yes -- when Gnus starts it selects all groups.  This reset the \Recent
> mark on Cyrus IMAPD at least.  I don't know how to make Gnus/nnimap
> start without selecting all groups, even though it would be nice to
> get rid of that step since it is slow.

Ah, I use Cyrus, so now I know.

kai
-- 
A large number of young women don't trust men with beards.  (BFBS Radio)

Re: What's the difference between gnus-recent-mark and gnus-unseen-mark?

[Simon Josefsson]

Steven E. Harris <seharris@raytheon.com> writes:

>> This is fine (but I could agree N is a bit noicy, what
>> about using `,' instead?).
>
> The comma could be fine. As the semantic distinction is subtle (at
> least in my usage scenario), the mark distinction should be subtle as
> well.

I've been running with , for some hours now and it could work,
although it looks a bit unprofessional.  Colon : might look better.
OTOH I now remember why N was chosen -- Pine uses this as a new mail
indicator, and perhaps Mutt also does the same.

>> When I have read IMAP mail using another IMAP mail reader (I often
>> read via Squirrelmail web mail) I don't get the N but I do get a
>> . instead.
>
> So is the dot indicating that while the message may have been seen
> before elsewhere, this Gnus instance hasn't seen it yet? 

Yes.  "seen elsewhere" is defined by the server, and can be anything.

> The 'N' would mean that no client has seen the message, while the
> dot would mean that Gnus hasn't seen it. Is that correct?

Yes, although a N might be displayed even if the mail is old if the
server is buggy or has a weird policy.  Gnus doesn't control it.

>> Perhaps the documentation could be improved to convey this stuff in
>> a clearer way. Suggestions?
>
> I can't propose specific wording right now, but these points should be
> made manifest (provided they are correct):
>
> o Have each mark's documentation mention the other, explaining how
>   they differ.
> o Explain the difference in "scope" between the marks. One addresses
>   message state across multiple clients, while the other is relevant
>   only to this client.

I improved it a little, but didn't explain the multi-client issue
since I couldn't come up with a brief and concise explanation.

Re: What's the difference between gnus-recent-mark and gnus-unseen-mark?

[Kai Großjohann]

Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> writes:

> I've been running with , for some hours now and it could work,
> although it looks a bit unprofessional.  Colon : might look better.
> OTOH I now remember why N was chosen -- Pine uses this as a new mail
> indicator, and perhaps Mutt also does the same.

Ah, yes, and VM also uses N.

Maybe it could be changed to n and N?  That would make them similar.
Use N for the mark that appears more often (the Gnus-controlled one?)
and n for the rarer(?) mark.  WDYT?

kai
-- 
A large number of young women don't trust men with beards.  (BFBS Radio)