From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.emacs.gnus.user/1644 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dave Bennett Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.gnus.user Subject: Re: FAQ for gnu.emacs.gnus Date: 20 Dec 2002 09:16:58 -0600 Organization: SBC Internet Services Message-ID: References: <687ke6jfbm.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1138668359 12174 80.91.229.2 (31 Jan 2006 00:45:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:45:59 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: nobody Tue Jan 17 17:29:28 2006 Original-Path: quimby.gnus.org!lackawana.kippona.com!news.infoave.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!cyclone.swbell.net!typhoon01.sbc.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Original-Sender: dbennett@localhost.localdomain Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.gnus X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.190.198.105 Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.190.196.2 Original-X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net Original-X-Trace: typhoon01.sbc.net 1040397524 208.190.196.2 (Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:18:44 PST) Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:18:44 PST Original-Xref: bridgekeeper.physik.uni-ulm.de gnus-emacs-gnus:1784 Original-Lines: 76 X-Gnus-Article-Number: 1784 Tue Jan 17 17:29:28 2006 Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.gnus.user:1644 Archived-At: Galen Boyer writes: > So, you are suggesting that you don't want to take the time to learn how > to use Gnus but you want to learn how to use Gnus anyways? > -- > Galen deForest Boyer > Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground. How about, "One should not have to become an elisp programmer or have to sort through scores of pages of the FAQ or manual or have to decipher possibly hundreds of list variables to set up email? Those should not be part of the "learning how to use gnus anyways" experience. No one will ever learn how to use gnus if they cannot get it installed. You have to actually have a bicycle before you can learn how to ride one. Like Don I also have gnus working correctly with newsgroups, but cannot get it to work with my pop3 server. I have tried every example in the FAQ and in the manual that even mentions pop3 to no avail. I have also tried at least 50 seemingly sensible modifications or alterations to the pitiful fragments present therein with no results. In fact, gnus is so pathetic that it doesn't generate _any_ meaningful error messages to the emacs messages buffer. With all of the modifications I've made to my .gnus file in an attempt to get gnus working with a pop3 server, they have all generated exactly the same text in the messages buffer. Comparatively speaking, getting pine to work with a pop3 email server took less than 2 minutes. And that was manually editing .pinerc. Getting Kmail to work took less than 10 seconds. mutt took about two minutes as well. To get gnus working with newsgroups took about 2 minutes as well. I really like the gnus style for newsgroups and would like to extend it to my email. But without even one complete, working example of email access in either the FAQ or the manual, and no sample .gnus file anywhere (except for a couple I found on a French gnus page that also do not work), it is not a task for a neophyte nor even an experienced user attempting to migrate from another mail package. What is needed in the FAQ is at least one sample .gnus file for each type of server .gnus will support. When people new to gnus ask questions, it can then be suggested that they use one of these sample .gnus files to get started and once that is working, to introduce trackable modifications to that file to customize their installation. If the sample file doesn't work, it will at least give a consistent starting point to those on this newsgroup willing to provide assistance in troubleshooting their system. The FAQ and the manual both are seriously lacking in any kind of examples. Endless listing of functions and value settings without any examples of them in use are pretty much useless. At least showing the effect of their implementation instead of links to other things the manual seemingly believes you should already know would go a long ways towards easing the understanding. Endless replies to rtfm or posting a link to a useless FAQ or manual helps no one. And the subsequent repeated questions and posts from confused user-wannabes generate more annoyance to those of you already using the product successfully. Yes, I am willing and available to rewrite the manual and the FAQ- with working examples. I have abundant technical and writing experience and will invest the time needed to do this job "right". But only if existing users, authors, and maintainers of gnus are willing to answer "obvious" questions and test examples on types of systems that I do not have access to. The way I see it, the FAQ and manual need to be tiered. One part that is complete in and of itself for people who just want to set up gnus and use it, not understand it. This is the way things are for 99-44/100% of computer users. Another section that goes further for those wanting to tweak or customize their installation. And a third section for those who would undertake fixing, modifying or extending the product.