Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

If you use gnus and you want to help "advertise" spamtrap and use
distinctive "personal" message-id format then you may consider adding
the following line to your ~/.gnus file:

(defun message-make-message-id()
  (concat "<"(message-unique-id)"@xxx.fsf.hobby-site.com>"))

xxx may be replaced by what you want e.g.
"@guru.fsf.hobby-site.com>" or
"@gnus.fsf.hobby-site.com>" or
"@Roberto.fsf.hobby-site.com>"

Please do not post "speculations" how it feeds my public spamtrap :-)

-- 
[pl>en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
A word to the wise is enough.
  -- Miguel de Cervantes

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Jan 30 2008, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:

> (defun message-make-message-id()
>   (concat "<"(message-unique-id)"@xxx.fsf.hobby-site.com>"))

No, please don't override `message-make-message-id'.  Use
`message-user-fqdn', see (info "(message)News Headers").

> xxx may be replaced by what you want e.g.
> "@guru.fsf.hobby-site.com>" or
> "@gnus.fsf.hobby-site.com>" or
> "@Roberto.fsf.hobby-site.com>"

If you allow different users to use the same full qualified domain
name it is no longer guaranteed the resulting Message-ID is unique.
I.e. users that follow your suggestion risk that their articles get
rejected because of a duplicate Message-ID.  So I strongly recommend
not to follow your suggestion.  (Hopefully fsf.hobby-site.com is your
own domain, at least.)

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> On Wed, Jan 30 2008, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
>
>> (defun message-make-message-id()
>>   (concat "<"(message-unique-id)"@xxx.fsf.hobby-site.com>"))
>
> No, please don't override `message-make-message-id'.  Use
> `message-user-fqdn', see (info "(message)News Headers").

OK.
[I use even more "elaborate" message-id generator ]

>> xxx may be replaced by what you want e.g.
>> "@guru.fsf.hobby-site.com>" or
>> "@gnus.fsf.hobby-site.com>" or
>> "@Roberto.fsf.hobby-site.com>"
>
> If you allow different users to use the same full qualified domain
> name it is no longer guaranteed the resulting Message-ID is unique.

Have you noticed "guru", "gnus" and "Roberto" in the above example?
The domains should be different => you assumption should be wrong.

> I.e. users that follow your suggestion risk that their articles get
> rejected because of a duplicate Message-ID.  So I strongly recommend
> not to follow your suggestion.  (Hopefully fsf.hobby-site.com is your
> own domain, at least.)

-- 
[pl>en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
"What the scientists have in their briefcases is terrifying."
  -- Nikita Khrushchev

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Reiner Steib]

On Wed, Jan 30 2008, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:

> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>> If you allow different users to use the same full qualified domain
>> name it is no longer guaranteed the resulting Message-ID is unique.
>
> Have you noticed "guru", "gnus" and "Roberto" in the above example?

Yes, I noticed.

> The domains should be different => you assumption should be wrong.

How do you make sure that two different users don't pick the same
prefix ("gnus", ...)?

>> (Hopefully fsf.hobby-site.com is your own domain, at least.)

Is it?

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> On Wed, Jan 30 2008, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
>
>> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>>> If you allow different users to use the same full qualified domain
>>> name it is no longer guaranteed the resulting Message-ID is unique.
>>
>> Have you noticed "guru", "gnus" and "Roberto" in the above example?
>
> Yes, I noticed.
>
>> The domains should be different => you assumption should be wrong.
>
> How do you make sure that two different users don't pick the same
> prefix ("gnus", ...)?

Even if they do then gnus *is* prepared to handle multiple users in the
same host domain. Do you insult gnus design *intentionally*?

>>> (Hopefully fsf.hobby-site.com is your own domain, at least.)
>
> Is it?

fsf.hobby-site.com is under my control.
hobby-site.com is owned/controlled by dyndns.com.

-- 
[pl>en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
Isn't it conceivable to you that an intelligent person could harbor
two opposing ideas in his mind?
  -- Adlai Stevenson, to reporters

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Adam Sjøgren]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:45:57 +0100, Andrzej wrote:

> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

>> How do you make sure that two different users don't pick the same
>> prefix ("gnus", ...)?

> Even if they do then gnus *is* prepared to handle multiple users in the
> same host domain.

I think you are missing the point - it has nothing to do with what Gnus
can handle and everything to do with the definition of Message-Ids (see
section 3.6.4 of rfc2822, <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2822.txt>).

> Do you insult gnus design *intentionally*?

Whoa, cool down, cowboy. Take a step back. Take a breath. Look at who
you are talking to - before you make too much more of a fool of yourself.

For more, see, for instance:
 <http://quimby.gnus.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/gnus/ChangeLog?rev=7.112>

> fsf.hobby-site.com is under my control.

Good :-)


  Best regards,

-- 
 "Mr. Jameson you can't say that... that's slander."          Adam Sjøgren
 "No it isn't and I resent that! Slander is spoken,      asjo@koldfront.dk
  in print it's libel."

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

asjo@koldfront.dk (Adam Sjøgren) writes:

> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:45:57 +0100, Andrzej wrote:
>
>> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>
>>> How do you make sure that two different users don't pick the same
>>> prefix ("gnus", ...)?
>
>> Even if they do then gnus *is* prepared to handle multiple users in the
>> same host domain.
>
> I think you are missing the point - it has nothing to do with what Gnus
> can handle and everything to do with the definition of Message-Ids (see
> section 3.6.4 of rfc2822, <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2822.txt>).

It *suggests* using the host "own name" in message-id as recommended
*sample* practice As I can see it *IS NOT* "MUST" mode (or even "SHOULD" mode).

>> Do you insult gnus design *intentionally*?
>
> Whoa, cool down, cowboy. Take a step back. Take a breath. Look at who
> you are talking to - before you make too much more of a fool of yourself.
>
> For more, see, for instance:
>  <http://quimby.gnus.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/gnus/ChangeLog?rev=7.112>

It was an unmarked irony. 
<irony> I will remember to use only marked <irony /> :-) </irony>

>> fsf.hobby-site.com is under my control.
>
> Good :-)

Have you missed "WHY" I ask for it part of my post?
[ *or* Have you assumed/suspected "no good" intentions? :-) ]

-- 
[pl>en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began
to suspect "Hungry."
  -- a Larson cartoon

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:

> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>> How do you make sure that two different users don't pick the same
>> prefix ("gnus", ...)?
>
> Even if they do then gnus *is* prepared to handle multiple users in the
> same host domain.

For different machines with the same "right hand side" of the MID, the
algorithm in `message-unique-id' cannot guarantee uniqueness.  It is
unlikely that the left hand side is the same, but not impossible.

RFC 2822, says: "The message identifier (msg-id) itself MUST be a
globally unique identifier for a message.".  When using the unique,
full qualified hostname, Gnus' algorithm guarantees this uniqueness.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
>
>> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>>> How do you make sure that two different users don't pick the same
>>> prefix ("gnus", ...)?
>>
>> Even if they do then gnus *is* prepared to handle multiple users in the
>> same host domain.
>
> For different machines with the same "right hand side" of the MID, the
> algorithm in `message-unique-id' cannot guarantee uniqueness.  It is
> unlikely that the left hand side is the same, but not impossible.
>
> RFC 2822, says: "The message identifier (msg-id) itself MUST be a
> globally unique identifier for a message.".  When using the unique,
> full qualified hostname, Gnus' algorithm guarantees this uniqueness.

Take a look at the issue from another side:
What can stop a spammer/abuser from using gnus message-id algorithm and
*your* domain name in *mass* spam runs?

What I suggested allows *personal* selection of "any host" in
fsf.hobby-site.com domain.

-- 
[pl>en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
If you do not wish a man to do a thing, you had better get him to talk about it; 
for the more men talk, the more likely they are to do nothing else.
  -- Carlyle

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, Jan 31 2008, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:

> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>> For different machines with the same "right hand side" of the MID, the
>> algorithm in `message-unique-id' cannot guarantee uniqueness.  It is
>> unlikely that the left hand side is the same, but not impossible.
>>
>> RFC 2822, says: "The message identifier (msg-id) itself MUST be a
>> globally unique identifier for a message.".  When using the unique,
>> full qualified hostname, Gnus' algorithm guarantees this uniqueness.
>
> Take a look at the issue from another side:
> What can stop a spammer/abuser from using gnus message-id algorithm and
> *your* domain name in *mass* spam runs?

Which has nothing to do with what I wrote.

> What I suggested allows *personal* selection of "any host" in
> fsf.hobby-site.com domain.

Your still missing the point.  Unless it is ruled out that no two
users "select" the same "any host", the problem still exists.  See e.g
how some big provider allow ID-NNNNN.user.uni-berlin.de where NNNNN is
a unique number for each user.  But they don't allow
${pick-some-random-personal-name-yourself}.user.uni-berlin.de for good
reasons.

EOT for me.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:15:18 +0100 Andrzej Adam Filip <anfi@onet.eu> wrote: 

AAF> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>> On Wed, Jan 30 2008, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
>> 
>>> (defun message-make-message-id()
>>> (concat "<"(message-unique-id)"@xxx.fsf.hobby-site.com>"))
>> 
>> No, please don't override `message-make-message-id'.  Use
>> `message-user-fqdn', see (info "(message)News Headers").

AAF> OK.
AAF> [I use even more "elaborate" message-id generator ]

Did you see the comment in message.el:message-unique-id ?

;; If you ever change this function, make sure the new version
;; cannot generate IDs that the old version could.
;; You might for example insert a "." somewhere (not next to another dot
;; or string boundary), or modify the "fsf" string.

If your generator is better (more random) than the built-in one and
doesn't overlap, I'd love to see it.

Thanks
Ted

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:15:18 +0100 Andrzej Adam Filip <anfi@onet.eu> wrote: 
>
> AAF> Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:
>>> On Wed, Jan 30 2008, Andrzej Adam Filip wrote:
>>> 
>>>> (defun message-make-message-id()
>>>> (concat "<"(message-unique-id)"@xxx.fsf.hobby-site.com>"))
>>> 
>>> No, please don't override `message-make-message-id'.  Use
>>> `message-user-fqdn', see (info "(message)News Headers").
>
> AAF> OK.
> AAF> [I use even more "elaborate" message-id generator ]
>
> Did you see the comment in message.el:message-unique-id ?
>
> ;; If you ever change this function, make sure the new version
> ;; cannot generate IDs that the old version could.
> ;; You might for example insert a "." somewhere (not next to another dot
> ;; or string boundary), or modify the "fsf" string.

I do not suggest changing message-unique-id function :-)
I merely suggest using "any host" in fsf.hobby-site.com as domain part
of generated "message-id:". 

> If your generator is better (more random) than the built-in one and
> doesn't overlap, I'd love to see it.

I personally use external (perl) script that gets message-unique-id via
its command line parameters. I think it would be gross overkill for
*most* users of gnus.

-- 
[pl>en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
"And it should be the law: If you use the word `paradigm' without
knowing what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail. No exceptions."
  -- David Jones @ Megatest Corporation

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:39:20 +0100 Andrzej Adam Filip <anfi@onet.eu> wrote: 

AAF> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>> If your generator is better (more random) than the built-in one and
>> doesn't overlap, I'd love to see it.

AAF> I personally use external (perl) script that gets message-unique-id via
AAF> its command line parameters. I think it would be gross overkill for
AAF> *most* users of gnus.

I speak Perl.  I'm interested.  Please post it.  If the algorithm is
good, maybe it will benefit everyone.  I assure you my goal is not to
criticize it.

Ted

Re: Do not let spam-trap go hungry! Your (normal) posts may help! :-)

[Andrzej Adam Filip]

Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:

> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:39:20 +0100 Andrzej Adam Filip <anfi@onet.eu> wrote: 
>
> AAF> Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com> writes:
>>> If your generator is better (more random) than the built-in one and
>>> doesn't overlap, I'd love to see it.
>
> AAF> I personally use external (perl) script that gets message-unique-id via
> AAF> its command line parameters. I think it would be gross overkill for
> AAF> *most* users of gnus.
>
> I speak Perl.  I'm interested.  Please post it.  If the algorithm is
> good, maybe it will benefit everyone.  I assure you my goal is not to
> criticize it.

It is a *trivial* perl script with "random part" based mostly on results
generated by message-unique-id. Anyway it uses (public) data sources and
(simple) techniques  I would prefer not to "advertise" publicly because
they may be *easily* abused by spammers.
For me only Lisp integration was challenging.

P.S.
Take a look at message-id-s of my posts to get an idea what it does :-)

-- 
[pl>en Andrew] Andrzej Adam Filip : anfi@priv.onet.pl : anfi@xl.wp.pl
The early bird who catches the worm works for someone who comes in late
and owns the worm farm.
  -- Travis McGee