From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from frisell.zx2c4.com (frisell.zx2c4.com [192.95.5.64]) by mandoc.bsd.lv (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 16a24ef8 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:55:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by frisell.zx2c4.com (ZX2C4 Mail Server) with ESMTP id 456b12f6 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 19:53:21 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=zx2c4.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; s=mail; bh=fgVAenxXEDURzZ5plvHStyPKXV0=; b=SK8Syz GLjcMU/H1ckcZbKb3sDHNRZNTcre+ICUqzxMxpr8sbbYSZPJ6s3BOAQsfUWZLwJz KBY7v9DZybF357I3fzkscq+JYXKo0/TvLgb109MFkcoRjN9y9vp/RfHNya2P4Ffr KstcWCMOIItsqcU4nz4Z2Y4F7Pk0NOsJbQBbP2AssOpfyyB051RzoKnudEu21Umt vCtobruS+E4Fnm19fETJHavLCMQDF0+6sItUDeVuLZT7PLB4wpXPqu5Q1sxPnbDC tjx3g9ZKEtJvP7dIcWUQD5MzqP878vPl6vE1EZRXdNXj/eGlB7NztaukohuhDHIw qzrXk2XXAal/rjMQ== Received: by frisell.zx2c4.com (ZX2C4 Mail Server) with ESMTPSA id 2d1219b7 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO) for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 19:53:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-f50.google.com with SMTP id j20so6826891otq.3 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:55:22 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWIGt8p1OO+zAMJbVxrZKqoz4hM9Sv77rDKZvhV33angEEGEfKv 6ibmQvBdiD4bLFQY4VsKJDL35DCAGtFPLHJLK08= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy2rWiapWMOg5xcF3DTdeFrbFkJYDHX4K4df56PcdUUyGs+MqSfGWKVw7RwIEwwuiV/ccG1fVr2J+dVQz9Gipw= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:811:: with SMTP id 17mr15152843oty.369.1581623721805; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:55:21 -0800 (PST) X-Mailinglist: mandoc-discuss Reply-To: discuss@mandoc.bsd.lv MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200213042900.2ed2sbhglg5uzjq5@BlackBox> <20200213044921.8115-1-dev@sgregoratto.me> <20200213175735.GE75465@athene.usta.de> <20200213193430.GG75465@athene.usta.de> In-Reply-To: <20200213193430.GG75465@athene.usta.de> From: "Jason A. Donenfeld" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 20:55:10 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] Fix formatting in wg-quick(8) To: Ingo Schwarze Cc: Stephen Gregoratto , discuss@mandoc.bsd.lv Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Ingo, On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 8:34 PM Ingo Schwarze wrote: > Don't underestimate the difficulty of getting something into the > OpenBSD kernel, though. We deleted support for kernel modules many > years ago and they won't come back. So, while you might get away > with making a kernel module for FreeBSD, for OpenBSD the code quality > needs to be sufficient to be included in every kernel for all users, > by default. Also, subsystem design and code quality is very strictly > audited and enforced in the kernel. So try to coordinate early > with kernel developers, to avoid later disappointments and wasted > effort by developing in some direction and finding out later that > parts of the design require tweaks. Tedu is a good person to ask > what to coordinate with whom; if you get people like claudio@ or > bluhm@ or dlg@ to help and to review early drafts of code, prospects > increase substantially. Neither me nor Jasper work in the kernel. Yea, we're not half-assing this, and we'll reach out to the right people at the right time and start showing up to conferences and stuff to suss out the finer points. The Linux module took 4 years to get in. We've learned some lessons. I think things will go well with OpenBSD. I'll start sending emails when I have coherent things to say. For now, though, the stuff in ports works fine. > Don't worry too much about manual pages. While we also require > manual pages that are complete, correct, and concise, that will not > make your project fail: you will get help with that when needed: > ask me when in doubt. It is much harder to get stuff ready for > kernel commits than to get the documentation into shape. Yes, well aware that development is the focus. No need for lessons here. We're taking that extremely seriously, have worked hard for the last 4 years at it, and intend to continue to do so with OpenBSD. However, I do care about the finer details, and one of these is documentation. Every time I open up my hand-crafted man page files, I want to close them, because the markup is such an eyesore. Any help at cleaning this up would be most welcome. > That said, in OpenBSD, we strongly prefer mdoc(7) manual pages over > man(7); though when outside suppliers only provide man(7), that can > be imported, too. FreeBSD, NetBSD, DragonFly BSD, and Illumos also > prefer mdoc(7) over man(7), though maybe not quite as strongly as > OpenBSD. Either way, mdoc(7) is easier to learn and write than > man(7), produces output of considerably better quality, and if some > of the platforms you want to support require man(7), you can readily > generate that from mdoc(7) with mandoc(1). The most prominent > platform i'm aware of that doesn't support mdoc(7) is commercial > Oracle Solaris; certainly all BSDs, MacOS, and all Linux distros > support mdoc(7). I'm not sure about commercial AIX and HP-UX. > > So you might want to consider maintaining your manual pages > in mdoc(7) format right from the start - that's better for all > BSDs, no worse for Linux, and you can use automatic conversion > for whatever other, more obscure systems you want to support. Interesting I hadn't ever considered this because I didn't know about it. I can open mdoc files with the man utility? Right now I appreciate that installation of man pages just requires copying a file. I'd like to retain this quality for as long as possible, but with the caveat that the actual markup of that file should be nice and maintainable. For that reason, I really appreciate what Stephen has begun here, and I hope that miniproject continues through til completion. Jason -- To unsubscribe send an email to discuss+unsubscribe@mandoc.bsd.lv