From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from forward1l.mail.yandex.net (forward1l.mail.yandex.net [84.201.143.144]); by fantadrom.bsd.lv (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 970a021b; for ; Fri, 2 Jan 2015 09:29:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2h.mail.yandex.net (smtp2h.mail.yandex.net [84.201.187.145]) by forward1l.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id D7E811520C5C; Fri, 2 Jan 2015 17:29:04 +0300 (MSK) Received: from smtp2h.mail.yandex.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2h.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 4554A1706C60; Fri, 2 Jan 2015 17:29:04 +0300 (MSK) Received: from unknown (unknown [89.204.154.224]) by smtp2h.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id 30L2Nen1pz-T2P4Brdd; Fri, 2 Jan 2015 17:29:03 +0300 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client certificate not present) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.com; s=mail; t=1420208943; bh=jdT35NXQyHAFypNhMbUHJEEE+NYvmJBgsmc12iyAzug=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Mail-Followup-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=OU7mtw8Y8EXA0RrKve+vUu1swYXZgvJ/LUqqDu108NcUoy11cU3T8MN2Z5E9NYTgQ Fpoyl2Q+Zxb4mx0JU8C50HySHIUxy51YaTRW15Uib7yZbrBet7Yl5gWljnxrAH6E0N NZWo7guOKSNcMjww2xatUNfHjPLv9eX3A8KZGEtg= Authentication-Results: smtp2h.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.com Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2015 15:29:22 +0100 From: Steffen Nurpmeso To: Ingo Schwarze Cc: tech@mdocml.bsd.lv Subject: Re: mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7) Message-ID: <20150102142922.fUbQrsIoLBuOlbo2@yandex.com> References: <20141229121746.vAh4wKsy%sdaoden@yandex.com> <20141229193631.GE17408@iris.usta.de> <20141229202024.niCQvsnl%sdaoden@yandex.com> <20141231205156.GQ19654@iris.usta.de> <20150101190136.03oKSkqW%sdaoden@yandex.com> <20150102123636.GF32031@iris.usta.de> In-Reply-To: <20150102123636.GF32031@iris.usta.de> Mail-Followup-To: tech@mdocml.bsd.lv, Ingo Schwarze User-Agent: s-nail v14.7.10-114-gf837438 X-Mailinglist: mdocml-tech Reply-To: tech@mdocml.bsd.lv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hallo Ingo, Ingo Schwarze wrote: |Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Thu, Jan 01, 2015 at 08:01:36PM +0100: |> seems to happily ignore to replace that style-centric |>=20 |> -.It Sx \&Ql Ta single-quoted literal text: Ql text |>=20 |> with the definitely more correct semantics-centric |>=20 |> +.It Sx \&Ql Ta format quoted literal text: Ql text |>=20 |> which the quoted literal mark-up command .Ql is all about. | |The mdoc(7) language is somewhat inconsistent in the following |respect: It contains many macros that are purely semantic, but also |some that are purely presentational (and even some abominations |that are a bit of both, like .Tn). It's the same ailing that |traditional HTML had, and that is now mostly resolved in HTML5 - I'll never forget the picture from a W3C conference meeting with all those happy guys in that palm covered bay. So it seemed to me HTML5 resolved quite some issues after all. |no wonder since both mdoc(7) and traditional HTML date from the |same time, plus/minus less than five years. I never have thought about a relationship in between that simplified SGML and runoff... Thinking of it, the latter term as such is a strong relationship, though. ;-) |The .Ql macro is one of those that are purely presentational. It is an inline literal, formatted in a way that makes it obvious that it is a literal, even on a TTY with only a single fixed-width font. |It requests two things: "literal font" (which is a purely |presentational aspect) and "single quotes" (which is a purely |presentational aspect just as well). No, no that is not how i see it. I _think_ of it in terms of rather than . Because i only know .Dl (which rather requires a leading .Pp) and ".Bd -literal" to achieve the same for a block, no macro that i know of except .Ql can be used to display some code inline. That it uses typographic single quotes to mark the inner text as a literal on a TTY is -- maybe, i think -- pretty random; yet single quotes stand out differently than double quotes which may also have other regular uses. Or say: using single quotes would only fail to be recognized immediately as something remarkably different (a "quoted literal") inside text that is enclosed in double quotes. Right? |So, for a one-line description, "single-quoted literal" is as |exact as it gets: both making it clear that this is purely |presentational, and stating precisely how it looks. | |Your proposed wording "format quoted literal" does *not* indicate |any semantic expressiveness either, so i don't understand why you |call it "semantics-centric". Besides, it has two issues: Ingo, it is your manual. But please notice that someone who is already heroic enough to use mdoc(7) (!) to document (!) her code (!) instead of using man(7) (!) already has a walk through hell (German =C2=ABLeidensweg=C2=BB is the thing i'm talking about). | 1. The word "format" is redundant. It is implied by the purpose | of the MACRO OVERVIEW list and applies to all macros. | Consequently, not a single instance of that word exists | in the whole section. Yes. | 2. Dropping the word "single" seems wrong. It merely loses | precision for no good reason that i can see. That's | particularly bad since all the other entries for "Physical | enclosures" explicitly name the enclosing character. | So i don't understand why you call it "more correct". I can only repeat that it actually took quite a lot of time, including digging into a BSD history repository, to understand that a mdoc(7) manual that uses .Ql quite a lot (mdoc(7) from GNU troff) is displayed correctly in it's PDF form even if .Ql text is *not* enclosed in single quotes. And that GNU's mdoc(7) macros are not buggy but reflect 1:1 the traditional mdoc(7) behaviour. My impression was false because i personally was used to use mdocml's mdoc(7), thinking it being more briefly and concise. |Happy New Year for you, Ah, the Gregorian date fascism; and the noise; and the dirt!! But i give it all back to you :-) --steffen -- To unsubscribe send an email to tech+unsubscribe@mdocml.bsd.lv