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* mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7)
@ 2014-12-29 12:17 Steffen Nurpmeso
  2014-12-29 19:36 ` Ingo Schwarze
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2014-12-29 12:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tech

'Morning,

mdocml's mdoc.7 says

  Ql  single-quoted literal text: `text'

but that is not what .Ql is about:

  .Ql   The quoted literal macro behaves differently in troff
        and nroff mode.  If formatted with @L_NROFF@(1)[221], a
        quoted literal is always quoted.  If formatted with
        troff, an item is only quoted if the width of the item
        is less than three constant width characters.  This is
        to make short strings more visible where the font
        change to literal (constant width) is less noticeable.

The behaviour is already device-dependent in "old -mdoc", before
1991-03-07.  (Without history i'm guessing, but maybe mdocml was
ment for TTY only at first glance, in which case the above is
absolutely correct, but it lost that property once more output
formats where added?)
Ciao,

--steffen
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* Re: mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7)
  2014-12-29 12:17 mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7) Steffen Nurpmeso
@ 2014-12-29 19:36 ` Ingo Schwarze
  2014-12-29 20:20   ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Ingo Schwarze @ 2014-12-29 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Steffen Nurpmeso; +Cc: tech

Hi Steffen,

Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 01:17:46PM +0100:

> mdocml's mdoc.7 says
> 
>   Ql  single-quoted literal text: `text'
> 
> but that is not what .Ql is about:
> 
>   .Ql   The quoted literal macro behaves differently in troff
>         and nroff mode.  If formatted with @L_NROFF@(1)[221], a
>         quoted literal is always quoted.  If formatted with
>         troff, an item is only quoted if the width of the item
>         is less than three constant width characters.  This is
>         to make short strings more visible where the font
>         change to literal (constant width) is less noticeable.
> 
> The behaviour is already device-dependent in "old -mdoc", before
> 1991-03-07.

The .Ql macro is physical markup, so it is rarely used in modern
mdoc(7) documents.  Actually, i wouldn't know what purpose to
recommend it for, at all.

For terminal output, precise output compatibility with groff
matters.  For other output modes, not so much.  For a rather
obscure legacy macro such as .Ql, even less.  So i'd rather
keep output consistent across devices instead of emulating
historical behaviour.  Besides, PostScript and PDF output have
much worse formatting issues than this.  Even for HTML output,
there are more interesting things to do.

> (Without history i'm guessing, but maybe mdocml was
> ment for TTY only at first glance,

Not quite, the original motivation for mdoc*ML* was HTML output,
and for the first three months of development, HTML was the
only output mode.  Kristaps only started coding terminal output
on February 20, 2009.

> in which case the above is absolutely correct, but it lost that
> property once more output formats where added?)

No, that's not what happened.

Yours,
  Ingo
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* Re: mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7)
  2014-12-29 19:36 ` Ingo Schwarze
@ 2014-12-29 20:20   ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  2014-12-31 20:51     ` Ingo Schwarze
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2014-12-29 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ingo Schwarze; +Cc: tech

Hallo Ingo,

Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de> wrote:
 |Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 01:17:46PM +0100:
 |> mdocml's mdoc.7 says
 |> 
 |>   Ql  single-quoted literal text: `text'
 |> 
 |> but that is not what .Ql is about:
 |> 
 |>   .Ql   The quoted literal macro behaves differently in troff
 |>         and nroff mode.[.]

 |> The behaviour is already device-dependent in "old -mdoc", before
 |> 1991-03-07.
 |
 |The .Ql macro is physical markup, so it is rarely used in modern
 |mdoc(7) documents.  Actually, i wouldn't know what purpose to
 |recommend it for, at all.
 |
 |For terminal output, precise output compatibility with groff
 |matters.  For other output modes, not so much.  For a rather

Yes.., but.., please consider the following.
The problem i (actually) have (had) with this is (that) mdocml's
mdoc.7 is installed in place of the "upstream" version (in fact
even overwriting it if you don't be careful) and can be expected
to increasingly become _the_ source of information on mdoc(7),
except maybe in some hardcore GNU places.  As such it spreads
false information, which will bite the unaware: i maybe was only
the first in a long long line of misleaded persons.

 |obscure legacy macro such as .Ql, even less.  So i'd rather
 |keep output consistent across devices instead of emulating
 |historical behaviour.  Besides, PostScript and PDF output have
 |much worse formatting issues than this.  Even for HTML output,
 |there are more interesting things to do.
 |
 |> (Without history i'm guessing, but maybe mdocml was
 |> ment for TTY only at first glance,
 |
 |Not quite, the original motivation for mdoc*ML* was HTML output,
 |and for the first three months of development, HTML was the
 |only output mode.  Kristaps only started coding terminal output
 |on February 20, 2009.

Ah.  I didn't know that.  (I only once have seen Kristaps'
i guess initial announcement of mdocml in the groff list
archives.)

 |> in which case the above is absolutely correct, but it lost that
 |> property once more output formats where added?)
 |
 |No, that's not what happened.

Well, wild guess leading to nowhere.

How about something as simple as the following, giving some
indication that there may be portability issues?

diff --git a/mdoc.7 b/mdoc.7
index c2ac5aa..cdc92a3 100644
--- a/mdoc.7
+++ b/mdoc.7
@@ -528,7 +528,7 @@ in the alphabetical
 .It Sx \&Dq , \&Do , \&Dc Ta enclose in typographic double quotes: Dq text
 .It Sx \&Qq , \&Qo , \&Qc Ta enclose in typewriter double quotes: Qq text
 .It Sx \&Sq , \&So , \&Sc Ta enclose in single quotes: Sq text
-.It Sx \&Ql Ta single-quoted literal text: Ql text
+.It Sx \&Ql Ta format quoted literal text: Ql text
 .It Sx \&Pq , \&Po , \&Pc Ta enclose in parentheses: Pq text
 .It Sx \&Bq , \&Bo , \&Bc Ta enclose in square brackets: Bq text
 .It Sx \&Brq , \&Bro , \&Brc Ta enclose in curly braces: Brq text
@@ -2201,7 +2201,10 @@ See also
 Close quoted context opened by
 .Sx \&Qo .
 .Ss \&Ql
-Format a single-quoted literal.
+Format a quoted literal.
+In
+.Xr mandoc 1
+the arguments are always enclosed in single-quotes.
 See also
 .Sx \&Qq
 and
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* Re: mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7)
  2014-12-29 20:20   ` Steffen Nurpmeso
@ 2014-12-31 20:51     ` Ingo Schwarze
  2015-01-01 19:01       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Ingo Schwarze @ 2014-12-31 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Steffen Nurpmeso; +Cc: tech

Hi Steffen,

Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 09:20:24PM +0100:

> The problem i (actually) have (had) with this is (that) mdocml's
> mdoc.7 is installed in place of the "upstream" version (in fact
> even overwriting it if you don't be careful) and can be expected
> to increasingly become _the_ source of information on mdoc(7),
> except maybe in some hardcore GNU places.

That's indeed true.

> As such it spreads
> false information, which will bite the unaware: i maybe was only
> the first in a long long line of misleaded persons.

I now see the point, so i committed the fix appended below.

Thanks for insisting,
  Ingo


Log Message:
-----------
describe .Ql more precisely; 
defect pointed out by Steffen Nurpmeso <sdaoden at yandex dot com>

Modified Files:
--------------
    mdocml:
        mdoc.7

Revision Data
-------------
Index: mdoc.7
===================================================================
RCS file: /home/cvs/mdocml/mdocml/mdoc.7,v
retrieving revision 1.246
retrieving revision 1.247
diff -Lmdoc.7 -Lmdoc.7 -u -p -r1.246 -r1.247
--- mdoc.7
+++ mdoc.7
@@ -2201,9 +2201,12 @@ See also
 Close quoted context opened by
 .Sx \&Qo .
 .Ss \&Ql
-Format a single-quoted literal.
+Request a literal font and enclose in single quotes.
+For arguments of three or more characters, formatters other than
+.Xr mandoc 1
+usually omit the quotes on non-terminal output devices.
 See also
-.Sx \&Qq
+.Sx \&Li
 and
 .Sx \&Sq .
 .Ss \&Qo
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* Re: mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7)
  2014-12-31 20:51     ` Ingo Schwarze
@ 2015-01-01 19:01       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  2015-01-02 12:36         ` Ingo Schwarze
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2015-01-01 19:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ingo Schwarze; +Cc: tech

Happy new year!

Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de> wrote:
 |Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 09:20:24PM +0100:
 |
 |> The problem i (actually) have (had) with this is (that) mdocml's
 |> mdoc.7 is installed in place of the "upstream" version (in fact
 |> even overwriting it if you don't be careful) and can be expected
 |> to increasingly become _the_ source of information on mdoc(7),
 |> except maybe in some hardcore GNU places.
 |
 |That's indeed true.

Indeed.

 |> As such it spreads
 |> false information, which will bite the unaware: i maybe was only
 |> the first in a long long line of misleaded persons.
 |
 |I now see the point, so i committed the fix appended below.
 |
 |Thanks for insisting,

Oh, rarely seen have been cases where i could more easily continue
insisting since your commit

 |

 |retrieving revision 1.247
 |diff -Lmdoc.7 -Lmdoc.7 -u -p -r1.246 -r1.247
 |--- mdoc.7
 |+++ mdoc.7
 |@@ -2201,9 +2201,12 @@ See also
 | Close quoted context opened by
 | .Sx \&Qo .
 | .Ss \&Ql
 |-Format a single-quoted literal.
 |+Request a literal font and enclose in single quotes.
 |+For arguments of three or more characters, formatters other than
 |+.Xr mandoc 1
 |+usually omit the quotes on non-terminal output devices.
 | See also
 |-.Sx \&Qq
 |+.Sx \&Li
 | and
 | .Sx \&Sq .
 | .Ss \&Qo

seems to happily ignore to replace that style-centric

  -.It Sx \&Ql Ta single-quoted literal text: Ql text

with the definitely more correct semantics-centric

  +.It Sx \&Ql Ta format quoted literal text: Ql text

which the quoted literal mark-up command .Ql is all about.

 |  Ingo

But now i feel rather hesitant.. and.. no, i won't continue.
Ciao,

--steffen
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* Re: mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7)
  2015-01-01 19:01       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
@ 2015-01-02 12:36         ` Ingo Schwarze
  2015-01-02 14:29           ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Ingo Schwarze @ 2015-01-02 12:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Steffen Nurpmeso; +Cc: tech

Hi Steffen,

Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Thu, Jan 01, 2015 at 08:01:36PM +0100:

> seems to happily ignore to replace that style-centric
> 
>   -.It Sx \&Ql Ta single-quoted literal text: Ql text
> 
> with the definitely more correct semantics-centric
> 
>   +.It Sx \&Ql Ta format quoted literal text: Ql text
> 
> which the quoted literal mark-up command .Ql is all about.

The mdoc(7) language is somewhat inconsistent in the following
respect: It contains many macros that are purely semantic, but also
some that are purely presentational (and even some abominations
that are a bit of both, like .Tn).  It's the same ailing that
traditional HTML had, and that is now mostly resolved in HTML5 -
no wonder since both mdoc(7) and traditional HTML date from the
same time, plus/minus less than five years.

The .Ql macro is one of those that are purely presentational.
It requests two things: "literal font" (which is a purely
presentational aspect) and "single quotes" (which is a purely
presentational aspect just as well).

So, for a one-line description, "single-quoted literal" is as
exact as it gets: both making it clear that this is purely
presentational, and stating precisely how it looks.

Your proposed wording "format quoted literal" does *not* indicate
any semantic expressiveness either, so i don't understand why you
call it "semantics-centric".  Besides, it has two issues:

 1. The word "format" is redundant.  It is implied by the purpose
    of the MACRO OVERVIEW list and applies to all macros.
    Consequently, not a single instance of that word exists
    in the whole section.

 2. Dropping the word "single" seems wrong.  It merely loses
    precision for no good reason that i can see.  That's
    particularly bad since all the other entries for "Physical
    enclosures" explicitly name the enclosing character.
    So i don't understand why you call it "more correct".

> But now i feel rather hesitant.. and.. no, i won't continue.

Well, *if* i am wrong, i'm willing to learn in which way.

Happy New Year for you,
  Ingo
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* Re: mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7)
  2015-01-02 12:36         ` Ingo Schwarze
@ 2015-01-02 14:29           ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  2015-01-02 16:03             ` Ingo Schwarze
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2015-01-02 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ingo Schwarze; +Cc: tech

Hallo Ingo,

Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de> wrote:
 |Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Thu, Jan 01, 2015 at 08:01:36PM +0100:
 |> seems to happily ignore to replace that style-centric
 |> 
 |>   -.It Sx \&Ql Ta single-quoted literal text: Ql text
 |> 
 |> with the definitely more correct semantics-centric
 |> 
 |>   +.It Sx \&Ql Ta format quoted literal text: Ql text
 |> 
 |> which the quoted literal mark-up command .Ql is all about.
 |
 |The mdoc(7) language is somewhat inconsistent in the following
 |respect: It contains many macros that are purely semantic, but also
 |some that are purely presentational (and even some abominations
 |that are a bit of both, like .Tn).  It's the same ailing that
 |traditional HTML had, and that is now mostly resolved in HTML5 -

I'll never forget the picture from a W3C conference meeting
with all those happy guys in that palm covered bay.  So it seemed
to me HTML5 resolved quite some issues after all.

 |no wonder since both mdoc(7) and traditional HTML date from the
 |same time, plus/minus less than five years.

I never have thought about a relationship in between that
simplified SGML and runoff...  Thinking of it, the latter term as
such is a strong relationship, though.  ;-)

 |The .Ql macro is one of those that are purely presentational.

It is an inline literal, formatted in a way that makes it obvious
that it is a literal, even on a TTY with only a single fixed-width
font.

 |It requests two things: "literal font" (which is a purely
 |presentational aspect) and "single quotes" (which is a purely
 |presentational aspect just as well).

No, no that is not how i see it.  I _think_ of it in terms of
<code></code> rather than <tt></tt>.  Because i only know .Dl
(which rather requires a leading .Pp) and ".Bd -literal" to
achieve the same for a block, no macro that i know of except .Ql
can be used to display some code inline.

That it uses typographic single quotes to mark the inner text as
a literal on a TTY is -- maybe, i think -- pretty random;  yet
single quotes stand out differently than double quotes which may
also have other regular uses.  Or say: using single quotes would
only fail to be recognized immediately as something remarkably
different (a "quoted literal") inside text that is enclosed in
double quotes.  Right?

 |So, for a one-line description, "single-quoted literal" is as
 |exact as it gets: both making it clear that this is purely
 |presentational, and stating precisely how it looks.
 |
 |Your proposed wording "format quoted literal" does *not* indicate
 |any semantic expressiveness either, so i don't understand why you
 |call it "semantics-centric".  Besides, it has two issues:

Ingo, it is your manual.  But please notice that someone who
is already heroic enough to use mdoc(7) (!) to document (!) her
code (!) instead of using man(7) (!) already has a walk through
hell (German «Leidensweg» is the thing i'm talking about).

 | 1. The word "format" is redundant.  It is implied by the purpose
 |    of the MACRO OVERVIEW list and applies to all macros.
 |    Consequently, not a single instance of that word exists
 |    in the whole section.

Yes.

 | 2. Dropping the word "single" seems wrong.  It merely loses
 |    precision for no good reason that i can see.  That's
 |    particularly bad since all the other entries for "Physical
 |    enclosures" explicitly name the enclosing character.
 |    So i don't understand why you call it "more correct".

I can only repeat that it actually took quite a lot of time,
including digging into a BSD history repository, to understand
that a mdoc(7) manual that uses .Ql quite a lot (mdoc(7) from GNU
troff) is displayed correctly in it's PDF form even if .Ql text is
*not* enclosed in single quotes.  And that GNU's mdoc(7) macros
are not buggy but reflect 1:1 the traditional mdoc(7) behaviour.
My impression was false because i personally was used to use
mdocml's mdoc(7), thinking it being more briefly and concise.

 |Happy New Year for you,

Ah, the Gregorian date fascism; and the noise; and the dirt!!
But i give it all back to you :-)

--steffen
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* Re: mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7)
  2015-01-02 14:29           ` Steffen Nurpmeso
@ 2015-01-02 16:03             ` Ingo Schwarze
  2015-01-02 18:56               ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Ingo Schwarze @ 2015-01-02 16:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Steffen Nurpmeso; +Cc: tech

Hi Steffen,

Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 03:29:22PM +0100:

> No, no that is not how i see it.  I _think_ of it in terms of
> <code></code> rather than <tt></tt>.  Because i only know .Dl
> (which rather requires a leading .Pp) and ".Bd -literal" to
> achieve the same for a block, no macro that i know of except .Ql
> can be used to display some code inline.

Oh.  Now i understand why you consider it semantic markup.
You don't consider "literal" as a font specification, but
in the sense of "literal display", "text copied verbatim".

I have no idea whether Cynthia originally considered it as
semantic markup or as physical markup, and how much she even
thought about the distinction (one day, i might ask her :).
But i'm always happy if we can tweak the documentation to make stuff
usable for semantic purposes, as long as that doesn't totally break
existing usage - which doesn't seem the case here.

So, what do you think about the following patch, documenting
it as semantic rather than physical markup?  I think i now like
the idea, one more semantic macro, one less physical.  :-)

Yours,
  Ingo


Index: mdoc.7
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvs/src/share/man/man7/mdoc.7,v
retrieving revision 1.128
diff -u -r1.128 mdoc.7
--- mdoc.7	31 Dec 2014 20:41:53 -0000	1.128
+++ mdoc.7	2 Jan 2015 15:45:00 -0000
@@ -454,6 +454,7 @@
 .Op Fl compact
 .It Sx \&D1 Ta indented display (one line)
 .It Sx \&Dl Ta indented literal display (one line)
+.It Sx \&Ql Ta in-line literal display: Ql text
 .It Sx \&Bl , \&El Ta list block:
 .Fl Ar type
 .Op Fl width Ar val
@@ -528,7 +529,6 @@
 .It Sx \&Dq , \&Do , \&Dc Ta enclose in typographic double quotes: Dq text
 .It Sx \&Qq , \&Qo , \&Qc Ta enclose in typewriter double quotes: Qq text
 .It Sx \&Sq , \&So , \&Sc Ta enclose in single quotes: Sq text
-.It Sx \&Ql Ta single-quoted literal text: Ql text
 .It Sx \&Pq , \&Po , \&Pc Ta enclose in parentheses: Pq text
 .It Sx \&Bq , \&Bo , \&Bc Ta enclose in square brackets: Bq text
 .It Sx \&Brq , \&Bro , \&Brc Ta enclose in curly braces: Brq text
@@ -1256,7 +1256,9 @@
 .Dl \&.Dl % mandoc mdoc.7 \e(ba less
 .Pp
 See also
+.Sx \&Ql ,
 .Sx \&Bd
+.Fl literal ,
 and
 .Sx \&D1 .
 .Ss \&Do
@@ -2221,14 +2223,21 @@
 Close quoted context opened by
 .Sx \&Qo .
 .Ss \&Ql
-Request a literal font and enclose in single quotes.
-For arguments of three or more characters, formatters other than
+In-line literal display.
+This can for example be used for complete command invocations and
+for multi-word code fragments when more specific markup is not
+appropriate and an indented display is not desired.
+While
 .Xr mandoc 1
-usually omit the quotes on non-terminal output devices.
+always encloses the arguments in single quotes, other formatters
+usually omit the quotes on non-terminal output devices when the
+arguments have three or more characters.
+.Pp
 See also
-.Sx \&Li
+.Sx \&Dl
 and
-.Sx \&Sq .
+.Sx \&Bd
+.Fl literal .
 .Ss \&Qo
 Multi-line version of
 .Sx \&Qq .
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* Re: mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7)
  2015-01-02 16:03             ` Ingo Schwarze
@ 2015-01-02 18:56               ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2015-01-02 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ingo Schwarze; +Cc: tech

Hallo Ingo,

Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de> wrote:
 |Steffen Nurpmeso wrote on Fri, Jan 02, 2015 at 03:29:22PM +0100:
 |> No, no that is not how i see it.  I _think_ of it in terms of
 |> <code></code> rather than <tt></tt>.  Because i only know .Dl
 |> (which rather requires a leading .Pp) and ".Bd -literal" to
 |> achieve the same for a block, no macro that i know of except .Ql
 |> can be used to display some code inline.
 |
 |Oh.  Now i understand why you consider it semantic markup.
 |You don't consider "literal" as a font specification, but
 |in the sense of "literal display", "text copied verbatim".
 |
 |I have no idea whether Cynthia originally considered it as
 |semantic markup or as physical markup, and how much she even
 |thought about the distinction (one day, i might ask her :).
 |But i'm always happy if we can tweak the documentation to make stuff
 |usable for semantic purposes, as long as that doesn't totally break
 |existing usage - which doesn't seem the case here.
 |
 |So, what do you think about the following patch, documenting
 |it as semantic rather than physical markup?  I think i now like
 |the idea, one more semantic macro, one less physical.  :-)

I like that!

--steffen
--
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end of thread, other threads:[~2015-01-02 18:56 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2014-12-29 12:17 mdocml's .Ql doesn't map to original and GNU mdoc(7) Steffen Nurpmeso
2014-12-29 19:36 ` Ingo Schwarze
2014-12-29 20:20   ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2014-12-31 20:51     ` Ingo Schwarze
2015-01-01 19:01       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2015-01-02 12:36         ` Ingo Schwarze
2015-01-02 14:29           ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2015-01-02 16:03             ` Ingo Schwarze
2015-01-02 18:56               ` Steffen Nurpmeso

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