*Rendering of math symbols in ASCII mode@ 2017-06-19 0:04 Anthony J. Bentley2017-06-19 17:06 ` Ingo Schwarze 0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread From: Anthony J. Bentley @ 2017-06-19 0:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tech Hi, This beauty shows up in erf(3): .Bd -filled -offset indent .if n \{\ erf(x) = 2/sqrt(pi)*\|integral from 0 to x of exp(\-t*t) dt. \} .if t \{\ erf\|(x) := (2/\(sr pi)\|\(is\d\s8\z0\s10\u\u\s8x\s10\d\|exp(\-t\u\s82\s10\d)\|dt. \} .Ed My first instinct was to replace it with eqn(7), a pleasant way to write non-trivial equations: .EQ roman erf ( x ) = 2 over {sqrt pi} int sub 0 sup x e sup {- t sup 2} dt .EN This looks great in groff -Tpdf and mandoc -Thtml, and is serviceable enough in mandoc -Tutf8. Unfortunately, in ASCII it looks like this: erf ( x ) = 2/(sqrt(n)) I_0^x e^(- t^2) dt As per mandoc_char(7), the integral symbol is replaced with I and pi is replaced with n. Awful! While I'm inclined to think that attempting to render equations in pure ASCII is somewhat futile, the human-readable nature of eqn(7) suggests the possibility of simply displaying the symbol name for certain symbols like Greek letters and integrals. erf ( x ) = 2/(sqrt(pi)) int_0^x e^(- t^2) dt I think it compares favorably with the current rendering: erf(x) = 2/sqrt(pi)*integral from 0 to x of exp(-t*t) dt This would make it practical to use eqn(7) in certain libm manuals, which I think could be a nice improvement. Viewing the math-heavy libGL manuals on man.openbsd.org is a real pleasure. Thoughts? -- Anthony J. Bentley -- To unsubscribe send an email to tech+unsubscribe@mdocml.bsd.lv ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread

*Re: Rendering of math symbols in ASCII mode2017-06-19 0:04 Rendering of math symbols in ASCII mode Anthony J. Bentley@ 2017-06-19 17:06 ` Ingo Schwarze2017-06-20 4:27 ` Anthony J. Bentley 0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread From: Ingo Schwarze @ 2017-06-19 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Anthony J. Bentley;+Cc:tech Hi Anthony, Anthony J. Bentley wrote on Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 06:04:23PM -0600: > This beauty shows up in erf(3): > > .Bd -filled -offset indent > .if n \{\ > erf(x) = 2/sqrt(pi)*\|integral from 0 to x of exp(\-t*t) dt. \} > .if t \{\ > erf\|(x) := > (2/\(sr pi)\|\(is\d\s8\z0\s10\u\u\s8x\s10\d\|exp(\-t\u\s82\s10\d)\|dt. \} > .Ed > > My first instinct was to replace it with eqn(7), I agree with that direction. While eqn(7) is better avoided where it can reasonably be avoided, it is the best solution for those unusual cases where non-trivial mathematical formulae are essential content of a manual page. > a pleasant way to write non-trivial equations: > > .EQ > roman erf ( x ) = 2 over {sqrt pi} int sub 0 sup x e sup {- t sup 2} dt > .EN Why roman? Aren't function names usually set italic in mathematic papers? > This looks great in groff -Tpdf and mandoc -Thtml, and is serviceable > enough in mandoc -Tutf8. Unfortunately, in ASCII it looks like this: > > erf ( x ) = 2/(sqrt(n)) I_0^x e^(- t^2) dt > > As per mandoc_char(7), the integral symbol is replaced with I and pi > is replaced with n. Awful! Awful indeed, but not our choice. Look at this in /usr/local/share/groff/1.22.3/tmac/tty-char.tmac: .\" These definitions are chosen so that, as far as possible, they: .\" - work with all of -Tascii, -Tlatin1, -Tutf8, and -Tcp1047. .\" - work on devices that display only the last overstruck character .\" as well as on devices that support overstriking .\" - represent the character's graphical shape (not its meaning) > While I'm inclined to think that attempting to render equations in pure > ASCII is somewhat futile, the human-readable nature of eqn(7) suggests > the possibility of simply displaying the symbol name for certain symbols > like Greek letters and integrals. > > erf ( x ) = 2/(sqrt(pi)) int_0^x e^(- t^2) dt I agree that is a clear improvement. > This would make it practical to use eqn(7) in certain libm manuals, > which I think could be a nice improvement. Viewing the math-heavy libGL > manuals on man.openbsd.org is a real pleasure. > > Thoughts? Currently, words like "integral" are translated to character escape sequences by the parser, independent of the output format. Moving that translation to the formatters in order to avoid it for -Tascii would cause code duplication because several formatters need the same translation: -Tutf8, -Tpdf, -Thtml... Besider, eqn(7) advertises that "the character escape sequences documented in mandoc_char(7) can be used, too", in addition to the translated words, so moving the tranlation to the formatters would only solve part of the problem and leave people in the rain who - legitimately - use \(is or \[integral] directly. So i think the rendering of special characters in -Tascii needs to be improved, but that requires building consensus with groff first, hoping that they might be willing to move away from the "graphical shape, not meaning" paradigm. Here are some of the unintelligible renderings: \(Ah N ALEF SYMBOL \(fa V FOR ALL \(pd a PARTIAL DIFFERENTIAL \(te 3 THERE EXISTS \(mo E ELEMENT OF \(st -) CONTAINS AS MEMBER \(sr \/ SQUARE ROOT \(ca (^) INTERSECTION \(cu U UNION \(is I INTEGRAL \(sb (= SUBSET OF \(su =) SUPERSET OF \(ib (_ SUBSET OF OR EQUAL TO \(ip _) SUPERSET OF OR EQUAL TO I don't think any of these allow intelligible one- or two-character ASCII renderings. Multi-character descriptive renderings cause a problem with spacing. For example, rendering \[sr]2\[mo]R as sqrt2element ofR is not very readable. For some character escape sequences that render to nothing in groff -Tascii, i decided to use descriptive renderings enclosed in angle brackets in the past: \(sc <sec> SECTION SIGN \(de <deg> DEGREE SIGN \(ps <par> PILCROW SIGN \(CS <lub> BLACK CLUB SUIT Do you consider that desirable for cases like the above, too? \(Ah <Aleph> ALEF SYMBOL \(fa <for all> FOR ALL \(te <there exists> THERE EXISTS \(mo <element of> ELEMENT OF \(sr <sqrt> SQUARE ROOT \(ca <intersection> INTERSECTION \(cu <union> UNION \(is <integral> INTEGRAL \(sb <subset of> SUBSET OF \(su <superset of> SUPERSET OF There is a similar problem with small greek letters. e^iomegat is not very readable. Or is it good enough? Is e^i<omega>t better? If so, what about pi? cos(2pi) = 1 is obviously fine, but exp(2pii) = 1 would arguably be more readable as exp(2<pi>i) = -1 It might be a good idea to form consensus here before approaching the groff community with patches. Yours, Ingo -- To unsubscribe send an email to tech+unsubscribe@mdocml.bsd.lv ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread

*Re: Rendering of math symbols in ASCII mode2017-06-19 17:06 ` Ingo Schwarze@ 2017-06-20 4:27 ` Anthony J. Bentley2017-06-20 16:44 ` Ingo Schwarze 0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread From: Anthony J. Bentley @ 2017-06-20 4:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ingo Schwarze;+Cc:tech Hi Ingo, Thanks for the thoughts. Ingo Schwarze writes: > > .EQ > > roman erf ( x ) = 2 over {sqrt pi} int sub 0 sup x e sup {- t sup 2} dt > > .EN > > Why roman? Aren't function names usually set italic in mathematic > papers? My impression is that single-letter functions are italic but words are roman. I've formatted that way since reading this in the TeXBook several years ago: "The names of algebraic variables are usually italic or Greek letters, but common mathematical functions like 'log' are always set in roman type." Reading it again, I'm not sure what qualifies as a "common" function. Briefly browsing the dusty TAOCP from my shelf just now, I encountered several italicized single-character function names, several romanized multi-character function names, and no contrary examples. > Currently, words like "integral" are translated to character escape > sequences by the parser, independent of the output format. Moving > that translation to the formatters in order to avoid it for -Tascii > would cause code duplication because several formatters need the > same translation: -Tutf8, -Tpdf, -Thtml... Indeed, that would be ugly. > Multi-character descriptive renderings cause a problem with > spacing. For example, rendering > > \[sr]2\[mo]R > > as > > sqrt2element ofR > > is not very readable. Nitpick: \(sr is not the right way to do square roots in eqn(7). The sqrt keyword will wrap in parentheses. (But I get your point.) > For some character escape sequences that render to nothing in > groff -Tascii, i decided to use descriptive renderings > enclosed in angle brackets in the past: > > \(sc <sec> SECTION SIGN > \(de <deg> DEGREE SIGN > \(ps <par> PILCROW SIGN > \(CS <lub> BLACK CLUB SUIT > > Do you consider that desirable for cases like the above, too? Indeed, I think this is a sensible and readable way to go for -Tascii, particularly for characters likely to be used in eqn(7). -- Anthony J. Bentley -- To unsubscribe send an email to tech+unsubscribe@mdocml.bsd.lv ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread

*2017-06-20 4:27 ` Anthony J. BentleyRe: Rendering of math symbols in ASCII mode@ 2017-06-20 16:44 ` Ingo Schwarze0 siblings, 0 replies; 4+ messages in thread From: Ingo Schwarze @ 2017-06-20 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Anthony J. Bentley;+Cc:tech Hi Anthony, Anthony J. Bentley wrote on Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 10:27:00PM -0600: > Ingo Schwarze writes: >> Anthony Bentley wrote: >>> .EQ >>> roman erf ( x ) = 2 over {sqrt pi} int sub 0 sup x e sup {- t sup 2} dt >>> .EN >> Why roman? Aren't function names usually set italic in mathematic >> papers? > My impression is that single-letter functions are italic but words > are roman. I stand corrected. Actually, blowing the dust off my own diploma thesis, i found several instances of arctan, exp, ln, log - all roman. Apparently, it has been too long since i looked at such typesetting... > Nitpick: \(sr is not the right way to do square roots in eqn(7). > The sqrt keyword will wrap in parentheses. I fully agree with that. > (But I get your point.) Once i came to the intermediate conclusion that we better work on the level of character escape sequences than on the level of egn(7) syntax, i considered all escapes, no matter whether they are needed in the context of eqn(7). >> For some character escape sequences that render to nothing in >> groff -Tascii, i decided to use descriptive renderings >> enclosed in angle brackets in the past: >> >> \(sc <sec> SECTION SIGN >> \(de <deg> DEGREE SIGN >> \(ps <par> PILCROW SIGN >> \(CS <lub> BLACK CLUB SUIT >> >> Do you consider that desirable for cases like the above, too? > Indeed, I think this is a sensible and readable way to go for -Tascii, > particularly for characters likely to be used in eqn(7). Following that, my inquiry on <groff@gnu.org> already elicited positive feedback from Werner Lemberg. So i'm quite hopeful that we can get this done and make eqn(7) useful for your intended purpose. Yours, Ingo -- To unsubscribe send an email to tech+unsubscribe@mdocml.bsd.lv ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2017-06-20 16:44 UTC | newest]Thread overview:4+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2017-06-19 0:04 Rendering of math symbols in ASCII mode Anthony J. Bentley 2017-06-19 17:06 ` Ingo Schwarze 2017-06-20 4:27 ` Anthony J. Bentley 2017-06-20 16:44 ` Ingo Schwarze

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