From: "Anna “CyberTailor”" <email@example.com>
To: Ingo Schwarze <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/3] Wrap manual header in the "<header>" tag
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2022 01:51:01 +0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <YsIBNfFtEggNHnRk@sysrq.in> (raw)
On 2022-07-03 22:12, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> Hello Anna,
> thank your for your explanations, i think i'm getting closer to
> understanding these things. However, a few details still confuse me:
> Anna Vyalkova wrote on Sun, Jul 03, 2022 at 11:49:47PM +0500:
> > On 2022-07-03 19:24, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> >> The table in question is clearly page-specific and definitely
> >> not the same for all documents on the site. I really think we
> >> should better use the role "doc-pageheader" here and not "banner".
> > Yes, this is according to the standards (and to common sense, since
> > these sections are not worth assigning landmark roles). However only a
> > few screen readers support "doc-pageheader" and "doc-pagefooter" roles,
> Ouch. Is there some way to find out (for a person like me who
> lacks experience with assistive technology) which ARIA features are
> well-supported across a wide range of assistive technology software
> and which tend to be poorly supported or unsupported by some software?
There are incomplete lists:
Key navigation features can be found in the documentation:
> > so an 'aria-label' tag may be needed in addition to avoid confusion:
> > <header role="doc-pageheader" aria-label="Manual header line">
> Sure, we can do that. Still, i am curious how exactly the aria-label
> attribute helps in this context. As far as i understand, the
> aria-label is just a name (invisible to the eye) for an HTML element
> and doesn't imply anything about document structure. What difference
> does it make for a screen reader whether the aria-label is present or
It will say the line before entering the element.
> Why would a user ever want the words "Manual header line" read out at
To know what to expect (and decide whether to skip or not).
Using a screen reader is like reading through a straw and totally blind
users can't see the whole picture.
> >> We might of course consider using <header role="doc-pageheader">,
> >> but that would seem unfortunate to me because in the case of man.cgi(8)
> >> output, we really need the "banner" role (ideally getting it as the default
> >> from a header element) for the site name (e.g. "OpenBSD manual page server")
> >> and the search form ("Manual Page Search Parameters"). Using <header>
> >> for *that* would perfectly fit the definition of the "banner" role
> >> cited above.
> >> As far as i can see, the HTML standard does not prohibit having two
> >> <header> elements in a row, for example like this:
> >> <body>
> >> <header>
> >> <h1><a href="https://www.openbsd.org/">OpenBSD</a>
> >> manual page server</h1>
> > If it's only one H1, assigning it a banner role makes little sense as
> > it's already reflected in the document hierarchy.
> >> <form action="/" method="get" autocomplete="off" autocapitalize="none">
> >> ...
> >> </form>
> > The search form needs to be top-level with role="search" to be
> > considered as a landmark:
> Yes, the form needs role="search", no doubt about that.
> But why does the form need to be top-level in order to be assigned a
> landmark role? So far, i did not find such a requirement in the
> WAI-ARIA-1.1 standard. Did i miss it? Or is that a constraint due
> to some (or all) implementations of assistive technology software?
Yes, there's no such requirement. I misinterpreted it. So wrapping the
form in <header> is fine.
> From the standards, quite to the contrary, i would expect that
> most websites would have a site logo, a site name, and a search form
> near the top of each page, and all three of these would go into
> a <header> element. So i would expect that <form role="search">
> being on the top level would be the exception rather than the common
> case. What am i missing here?
Yes, makes sense.
> [ two <header>s as children of the same element ]
> > I think it's fine
> > 1) in semantic sense (they are still headers and footers, just
> > page-specific ones)
> > 2) so we can write "header > table" in CSS
> OK, thanks for clarifyong that, so i'll use that if we end up
> needing it.
> >> Do you think having two consecutive headers right below <body> would
> >> be good here, or what should we do instead?
> > This won't happen with my proposal. Either this:
> > <form>
> > <header>
> > or this:
> > <form>
> > <nav> (with <table class="results">)
> > <header>
> I see. If we do not wrap the site-oriented information at the top (site name and search form) in a <header> element, then we only have one header. It seems a bit strange in that case that the header isn't at the top, but maybe that's not a problem?
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-07-03 20:51 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 14+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-06-28 18:18 [PATCH 0/3] Add HTML landmarks Anna Vyalkova
2022-06-28 18:18 ` [PATCH 1/3] Wrap manual header in the "<header>" tag Anna Vyalkova
2022-07-03 17:24 ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-07-03 18:49 ` Anna Vyalkova
2022-07-03 20:12 ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-07-03 20:51 ` Anna “CyberTailor” [this message]
2022-07-05 15:16 ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-07-05 16:15 ` Anna
2022-07-05 18:45 ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-07-05 19:03 ` Anna
2022-07-05 21:39 ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-06-28 18:18 ` [PATCH 2/3] Wrap manual text in the "<main>" tag Anna Vyalkova
2022-07-03 14:41 ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-06-28 18:18 ` [PATCH 3/3] Wrap manual footer in the "<footer>" tag Anna Vyalkova
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