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From: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de>
To: Anna <cyber@sysrq.in>
Cc: tech@mandoc.bsd.lv
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/3] Wrap manual header in the "<header>" tag
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2022 20:45:06 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <YsSGslSchnslh4Tv@asta-kit.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <YsRjtD/ia5by8lTz@sysrq.in>

Hi Anna,

Anna wrote on Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 09:15:48PM +0500:

> Whatever works

Not really...  :-(
I have seen that attitude result in terrible markup too often,
and not only in HTML/CSS, but also in other markup languages
like mdoc(7), man(7), roff(7), even LaTeX...

So i would really like to select markup that makes sense semantically
and is also generally considered as decent style.

> (but then we need to keep class="head" for styles).

Not necessarily.  CSS can also select by other attributes.
For example, mandoc.css already contains

  input[name=expr] { width: 25%; }

Maybe we could do something like:

  table[role=doc-pageheader] { ... }

Then again, maybe nothing much is wrong with keeping the class for
backward compatibility, at least for some time.

> While we're at this, can we use something other than tables for
> pageheader/pagefooter layout?
> https://git.sr.ht/~devinprater/fossability/tree/master/item/user%20interface%20and%20experience/web.md#html

Yes, i'm aware of that, and i have been wanting to move away from
this abuse of <table> for several years but never came round to it.

There is also this very old entry in the TODO file:

 - The tables used to render the three-part page headers actually force
   the width of the <body> to the max-width given for <html>.
   Not yet sure how to fix that...
   Observed by an Anonymous Coward on undeadly.org:
   http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140925064244&pid=1
   loc *  exist *  algo **  size *  imp ***

That might possibly fix itself once we move away from <table>.

In the context of your patches, i deliberately avoided bringing
that up because i didn't want to cause a distraction from your work.

Then again, since you bring it up, maybe we should fix this first.
With a bit of luck, it might make assigning the proper ARIA
role easier, too.

So, which HTML element *should* we use instead of <table>?
<header> would make sense from the semantic perspective but
we already found out we cannot assign the doc-pageheader role to it.
<section> seems clearly inappropriate.
That leaves me more or less with <div>, but that is very weak
semantically...

And then the second question is how to style it.
Do you think flexbox is the right CSS tool,
or is there something that might fit better?

Right now, the best i can come up with is

<header role="group"> /* or without this if the validator complains again */
<div role="doc-pageheader" aria-label="manual header line">
  <span>CHMOD(1)</span>
  <span>General Commands Manual</span>
  <span>CHMOD(1)</span>
</div>
</header>

div[role=doc-pageheader] {
	display: flex;
	justify-content: space-between;
	border-bottom: 1px dotted #808080;
	margin-bottom: 1em;
	font-size: smaller; }

Not tested yet!  Do you have a better idea, or should i develop
a patch for that, test it, and commit it if it works?

Yours,
  Ingo
--
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  reply	other threads:[~2022-07-05 18:45 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 14+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-06-28 18:18 [PATCH 0/3] Add HTML landmarks Anna Vyalkova
2022-06-28 18:18 ` [PATCH 1/3] Wrap manual header in the "<header>" tag Anna Vyalkova
2022-07-03 17:24   ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-07-03 18:49     ` Anna Vyalkova
2022-07-03 20:12       ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-07-03 20:51         ` Anna “CyberTailor”
2022-07-05 15:16           ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-07-05 16:15             ` Anna
2022-07-05 18:45               ` Ingo Schwarze [this message]
2022-07-05 19:03                 ` Anna
2022-07-05 21:39                   ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-06-28 18:18 ` [PATCH 2/3] Wrap manual text in the "<main>" tag Anna Vyalkova
2022-07-03 14:41   ` Ingo Schwarze
2022-06-28 18:18 ` [PATCH 3/3] Wrap manual footer in the "<footer>" tag Anna Vyalkova

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