From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,
	T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4
Received: (qmail 25130 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2022 19:03:22 -0000
Received: from bsd.lv (HELO mandoc.bsd.lv) (66.111.2.12)
  by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 5 Jul 2022 19:03:22 -0000
Received: from fantadrom.bsd.lv (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mandoc.bsd.lv (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id ac1c54f0
	for <ml@inbox.vuxu.org>;
	Tue, 5 Jul 2022 14:03:20 -0500 (EST)
Received: from sysrq.in (sysrq.in [37.79.202.136])
	by mandoc.bsd.lv (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 60ee69f1
	for <tech@mandoc.bsd.lv>;
	Tue, 5 Jul 2022 14:03:19 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sysrq.in; s=sysrq.in;
	t=1657047796;
	h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id:
	 to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type:
	 in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt;
	bh=QEsAl0ycjsG62NT9Rn9gJM0hDKSIcW3DJ2apLS1GOTw=;
	b=SOClsDmpU0KUtpgL6QYOtPV/LljLhPa+Ss+6HNqWWLV1LO3SmtQONVShNiTA8WvLcbOlEp
	TMD7Q3d84hY34cNs5R/qEryenm4pR6QXky1P+L9hAifgc2ZX6GXP54M+Wa/gu6EYOp4hiW
	oU0XNEo738SCe72R3vfqD6KVUkHu0x7Tzx/aNByTTBj6TlNZQdjUSNZ5o1pniCCdnfHYOG
	dvowNQhjIuiYpiK4HO09AEf/0Enb+j5u7lUjEpinTR9k3d7LY7ng2UcAKQNX71TtwCUFvy
	b2ABpVF3xXI2n9Nd8wDPL7Te4xHlErL/42Vk4bpXE2YFvvGOFdD+7If/ed5m9Q==
Received: from sysrq.in (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by sysrq.in (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 2ca37cd4 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO);
	Tue, 5 Jul 2022 19:03:16 +0000 (UTC)
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 00:03:15 +0500
From: Anna <cyber@sysrq.in>
To: Ingo Schwarze <schwarze@usta.de>
Cc: tech@mandoc.bsd.lv
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/3] Wrap manual header in the "<header>" tag
Message-ID: <YsSK83McJSzva+d+@sysrq.in>
References: <20220628181844.15484-1-cyber@sysrq.in>
 <20220628181844.15484-2-cyber@sysrq.in>
 <YsHQwEk20FQARzFA@asta-kit.de>
 <YsHky81PH7PUI0YF@sysrq.in>
 <YsH4Jzd7odZa3mqn@asta-kit.de>
 <YsIBNfFtEggNHnRk@sysrq.in>
 <YsRV3yNbBmJwDxo0@asta-kit.de>
 <YsRjtD/ia5by8lTz@sysrq.in>
 <YsSGslSchnslh4Tv@asta-kit.de>
X-Mailinglist: mandoc-tech
Reply-To: tech@mandoc.bsd.lv
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <YsSGslSchnslh4Tv@asta-kit.de>
Autocrypt: addr=cyber@sysrq.in; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=
	mDMEYIFqhRYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAmXuImZ3E4FYSZevE6xmeyqwBedA5TL3F0mA4nM8Jv5C0J0F
	ubmEg4oCcQ3liZXJUYWlsb3LigJ0gPGN5YmVyQHN5c3JxLmluPoiQBBMWCAA4FiEERA3R5VXjf5
	x8ewz7f6gU36rhAzoFAmCBaoUCGwMFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQf6gU36rhA
	zoeCwD/UbmIjoaPHgxAubn/yoHbqtix0p1W8BwVdZSBinqtoc8BAMX19adz5Zx71lYFinFG7Yav
	D4E0jClMEfnYJH2TeG4HuDgEYIFqhRIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEHQGL1LYMPZDabnCTPEuyg5QgIlnU
	bKBqoPjp5sNidRZJXAwEIB4h4BBgWCAAgFiEERA3R5VXjf5x8ewz7f6gU36rhAzoFAmCBaoUCGw
	wACgkQf6gU36rhAzpFxwD/Z0QQGqLgBcafYUcHmzYcYxuyazuKWIn3H6OkeFUYtTgBAJmK2E+Yo
	mSMc0Ds93+yNQU0KhN1Ipyp9PiLDSSm8Z4B
User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.6 (2022-06-05)

On 2022-07-05 20:45, Ingo Schwarze wrote:
> Hi Anna,
> 
> Anna wrote on Tue, Jul 05, 2022 at 09:15:48PM +0500:
> 
> > Whatever works
> 
> Not really...  :-(
> I have seen that attitude result in terrible markup too often,
> and not only in HTML/CSS, but also in other markup languages
> like mdoc(7), man(7), roff(7), even LaTeX...
> 
> So i would really like to select markup that makes sense semantically
> and is also generally considered as decent style.
> 
> > (but then we need to keep class="head" for styles).
> 
> Not necessarily.  CSS can also select by other attributes.
> For example, mandoc.css already contains
> 
>   input[name=expr] { width: 25%; }
> 
> Maybe we could do something like:
> 
>   table[role=doc-pageheader] { ... }
> 
> Then again, maybe nothing much is wrong with keeping the class for
> backward compatibility, at least for some time.
> 
> > While we're at this, can we use something other than tables for
> > pageheader/pagefooter layout?
> > https://git.sr.ht/~devinprater/fossability/tree/master/item/user%20interface%20and%20experience/web.md#html
> 
> Yes, i'm aware of that, and i have been wanting to move away from
> this abuse of <table> for several years but never came round to it.
> 
> There is also this very old entry in the TODO file:
> 
>  - The tables used to render the three-part page headers actually force
>    the width of the <body> to the max-width given for <html>.
>    Not yet sure how to fix that...
>    Observed by an Anonymous Coward on undeadly.org:
>    http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140925064244&pid=1
>    loc *  exist *  algo **  size *  imp ***
> 
> That might possibly fix itself once we move away from <table>.
> 
> In the context of your patches, i deliberately avoided bringing
> that up because i didn't want to cause a distraction from your work.
> 
> Then again, since you bring it up, maybe we should fix this first.
> With a bit of luck, it might make assigning the proper ARIA
> role easier, too.
> 
> So, which HTML element *should* we use instead of <table>?
> <header> would make sense from the semantic perspective but
> we already found out we cannot assign the doc-pageheader role to it.
> <section> seems clearly inappropriate.
> That leaves me more or less with <div>, but that is very weak
> semantically...

<header> is just <div> with default role, so there's nothing wrong in
using <div>.
 
> And then the second question is how to style it.
> Do you think flexbox is the right CSS tool,
> or is there something that might fit better?

I thought about flexbox too, it is the right tool.

> Right now, the best i can come up with is
> 
> <header role="group"> /* or without this if the validator complains again */
> <div role="doc-pageheader" aria-label="manual header line">
>   <span>CHMOD(1)</span>
>   <span>General Commands Manual</span>
>   <span>CHMOD(1)</span>
> </div>
> </header>

Maybe drop <header>. And leave classes for backwards compatibility with
user CSS.

> div[role=doc-pageheader] {
> 	display: flex;
> 	justify-content: space-between;
> 	border-bottom: 1px dotted #808080;
> 	margin-bottom: 1em;
> 	font-size: smaller; }
> 
> Not tested yet!  Do you have a better idea, or should i develop
> a patch for that, test it, and commit it if it works?

I have no better ideas.

> Yours,
>   Ingo
--
 To unsubscribe send an email to tech+unsubscribe@mandoc.bsd.lv