From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/3701 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rob Landley Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: embedded newbies site. Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 23:40:11 -0500 Message-ID: <1374468011.3719.27@driftwood> References: Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; DelSp=Yes; Format=Flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1374468025 14155 80.91.229.3 (22 Jul 2013 04:40:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 04:40:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: musl@lists.openwall.com To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-3705-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Mon Jul 22 06:40:29 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by plane.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V17vA-0001JJ-CR for gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2013 06:40:28 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 14189 invoked by uid 550); 22 Jul 2013 04:40:26 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Original-Received: (qmail 14177 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2013 04:40:26 -0000 X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:subject:to:cc:in-reply-to:x-mailer:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=+P0sVD+UXCmF8rqeA0DHcCVLxTx+5caDBN6rYdDjB3M=; b=NE+GEupSmsXp3K6IFoicZzazAfGXy/DKySPFVw42oXgk2IHFQxxSIA4biDsFja5R6h OieOSu4UJOJ6GoRqI6GvTEIHMoEDSlVpjHMi2kqGbxQNyVS+lVCv+bgYboIvXsrYdvOk sK/Zxe5GdWO215FOl2YHzZmLWaQTfLPbawJHurTGNwlxAviIc2HSG9f7znY+IX0lsJOP PrCjja7+R1fhFjDV8fxfnrVsnCCOw0NgyjJASIG4piPsuenHUJUxdrtTXezod2SAraJm e0M3tS5U9XELKmdMsFzzu840zD3dPQJk7Vmbw34mbyzPhnbpId/rIGnPwcAyzTO/1ern o7Ag== X-Received: by 10.50.65.99 with SMTP id w3mr8833832igs.37.1374468014120; Sun, 21 Jul 2013 21:40:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (from strake888@gmail.com on Mon Jul 15 22:18:20 2013) X-Mailer: Balsa 2.4.11 Content-Disposition: inline X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQngX34qFmS2ltTcqYxdxP2QPDL7dKvuUzpzb7/dG0Qsbb4gEXffbCia0z2uwBJD8mWMLQMK Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:3701 Archived-At: On 07/15/2013 10:18:20 PM, Strake wrote: > On 15/07/2013, Rob Landley wrote: > > - creating a development environment (building binutils, gcc, > > make...) > > - requirements for self-hosting > > - requirements for natively building Linux From Scratch > > - cross vs native compiling > > - bootstrapping to native compiling under emulation. >=20 > This. For me, at least, this is often the greatest hindrance. It's a fairly hard part. My whole aboriginal linux project was an =20 investigation of what's actually involved here and how to do it. Now =20 that the investigation's complete (or at least reached a reasonable "it =20 works now, and I can't think of an obviously better wya to do it with =20 the tools at hand" stopping point), I suspect there's a better way of =20 explaining it than just "go read this giant pile of shell scripts that =20 I got to work". So I should write up what's involved, and how I determined the =20 requirements... > > - efficient (elegant) programming > > - Why C and scritpting languages, why NOT C++ and autoconf > > - tradeoffs > > - code reuse > > - transaction granularity > > - taking advantage of SMP without going crazy >=20 > I would be glad to help here. What did you have in mind? > May find some ideas here: > http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ I read the original "cat -v considered harmful" which is why I did =20 "catv" in busybox many years ago, but that was a paper by one of the =20 original bell labs guys. This guy is just collecting random papers. While I admire the attitude, I've never found that site particularly =20 useful. There's no pragmatism at all in his approach, he doesn't =20 recommend things you can actually _use_, just platitudes. He recommends =20 tcc instead of gcc, which doesn't build even 1% as many real world =20 software packages. (I joined the tcc mailing list right after tccboot =20 hit slashdot circa 2004, and I spent 3 years maintaining a tcc fork =20 after Fabrice moved on to QEMU. I know exactly why it's NOT a real =20 world replacement for gcc right now, what would be required to get =20 minimal functionality out of it, and why the current development team =20 will never do so.) Similarly he recommends uclibc and dietlibc instead =20 of glibc with no discussion of the tradeoffs... musl exists because =20 they're not good enough. What I'm hoping out of the new embedded newbies stuff is things people =20 can actually do/use. Even the theory should lead to practical advice, =20 immediately applicable. (It just explains _why_ you want to do it that =20 way, and what happens if you don't.) Rob=