From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/3704 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andrew Bradford Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: embedded newbies site. Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 08:27:56 -0400 Message-ID: <1374496076.9947.9223372036855616493.718EFEA9@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1373940214.3719.5@driftwood> Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1374496097 7425 80.91.229.3 (22 Jul 2013 12:28:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 12:28:17 +0000 (UTC) To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-3708-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Mon Jul 22 14:28:21 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by plane.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V1FDv-0003Wa-N6 for gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2013 14:28:19 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 19531 invoked by uid 550); 22 Jul 2013 12:28:17 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Original-Received: (qmail 19501 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2013 12:28:08 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= bradfordembedded.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:date:in-reply-to :references; s=mesmtp; bh=CIrpwQ0UYojm6wUkYejKERNvppw=; b=MYV6Fx xZipW8hc9/FlT0zqRogWPo5sH+vDZlhj2xe+EM8XhobPAtK5SZKLgxXjUkHEfHOq wZ6LwEeKeadLHNDufEw8oEPcctVpBuKFiDp1KlKtXvtfTWiresThrPlDqoUY9F23 VOAiQarXHPRr79nXAwY3nvarbCi8ev5t9tUl8= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:subject:date:in-reply-to :references; s=smtpout; bh=CIrpwQ0UYojm6wUkYejKERNvppw=; b=rZTrA fllj8HCS+IZWsDtFLgJYEP9dcpROTc0PViUHjfTu8HqrHvpESpzjhjCG5Z0IYKpM SadKrO39Lf81sRUrVdByq2e46uEm1QQkC0rYnLPRlApX858EnkafnZX7KW6upfd1 NM21rGUJYDgncJQsWtytBEtgTKnWzxpg6DeeSI= X-Sasl-Enc: +hdlLLioJ0tAok1NDz4X9NII22RueGYdByxrdWDIFE5p 1374496076 X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-01299b66 In-Reply-To: Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:3704 Archived-At: On Sat, Jul 20, 2013, at 11:17 AM, James B wrote: > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Strake wrote: > > > On 15/07/2013, Rob Landley wrote: > > > - creating a development environment (building binutils, gcc, > > > make...) > > > - requirements for self-hosting > > > - requirements for natively building Linux From Scratch > > > - cross vs native compiling > > > - bootstrapping to native compiling under emulation. > > > > This. For me, at least, this is often the greatest hindrance. > > > > That makes two of us. There are many tools for making cross compiler > (aboriginal, crosstools-ng, buildroot, etc) but I haven't found one that > guides how to move to native compiling (=create the native compilers) > once > one has the cross-compilers and bootable rootfs (I know, aboriginal > *does* > create native compilers so I should read Rob's scripts for that ...). > > That being said, the other topics are pretty relevant too. > > Also, anyone thinks that CLFS is good start for this? One thing that I > notice about (C)LFS is that the steps are there but the rationale and > explanation isn't; so it encourages people to follow a recipe without > knowing *why* things have to be done in a certain way (to be fair, the > main > LFS (not its CLFS variants) does have some kind of explanation but it > could > be improved). I'm currently one of the only developers currently working on the CLFS Embedded book [1]. I'd happily take patches to describe why things work they way they do and why the steps are what they are. The biggest hindrance the CLFS embedded book has is a lack of both developer time and experience, the main core people who started the embedded book haven't contributed much in the past few years I assume due to other commitments. [1]:http://cross-lfs.org/view/clfs-embedded/ We're (2 or 3 of us) currently in the middle of a bunch of discussions on #cross-lfs IRC and scattered around clfs-dev ml regarding moving from uClibc to something else. I tried some builds with glibc and realized that's not really a decent choice, even today. I got pointed to musl by rofl0r on Github (sorry, don't know their real name). We're now working though coming up to speed on musl and learning how to build it such that we can consider it for use on MIPS, x86 and ARM for the book [2]. [2]:http://lists.cross-lfs.org/pipermail/clfs-dev-cross-lfs.org/2013-July/001517.html If the CLFS embedded book is a good starting point, please feel free to send patches, I'm happy to take them. Although based on reading through the archive it looks like the real goal is bigger than what CLFS embedded's real goals are: like talking about jtags, emulated bootstraps, native compilers, etc. If CLFS embedded isn't the right place to start, maybe deprecating the CLFS embedded book and moving to the proposed wiki would be something to consider? Especially if the developer time / experience is higher and if the final product would cover more of the "why" and not just the steps. I'd be happy to contribute to such a resource where I can. Thanks, Andrew