From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/3759 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rob Landley Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: embedded newbies site. Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 19:58:28 -0500 Message-ID: <1374886708.3031.23@driftwood> References: Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; DelSp=Yes; Format=Flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1374886722 27385 80.91.229.3 (27 Jul 2013 00:58:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 00:58:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: musl@lists.openwall.com To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-3763-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Sat Jul 27 02:58:44 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by plane.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V2sqJ-0003lJ-Vy for gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 02:58:44 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 20214 invoked by uid 550); 27 Jul 2013 00:58:42 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Original-Received: (qmail 20206 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2013 00:58:42 -0000 X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:subject:to:cc:in-reply-to:x-mailer:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding:x-gm-message-state; bh=0z9YUQ95mXdRbfaEiSw5ZbCCeyMXj72VLQZK2NqZFbc=; b=GyW97VR1L/MffV36qtnbZN8YrHslOU8dBLbYcCzbP0g2KTYjxCWXKTCK+uy7CCQJbi wrTp4EN7Fv+jUJnzG9z/wF3V8tvKXjcUPeySG1mMTAf93zMcXgNOQZQZuw2gEL+84wp7 XakUYmOzzW+gAE7tuR92d+Nz2lwMcqlbZ5njhJea4+TKZTYOr1ZLbENt5DagZyWRnf+A A90Kwyl603SEBK7HvvJFiDDwHy6wieIVQ5HPrGtxJuiro4N//5HhY29kyE/XknTHExpU /EzkZiO7FCjfR1pifolVFfAs+ctvlMkDmqbhznnZdfG9iGbnyHWzEd9z676mrCoy9+hS 6TDg== X-Received: by 10.60.59.193 with SMTP id b1mr14545056oer.53.1374886710316; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:58:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (from strake888@gmail.com on Mon Jul 22 19:12:39 2013) X-Mailer: Balsa 2.4.11 Content-Disposition: inline X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn5MQJvSw83cfYcfMK5HRUgV8KTTSkgS17hsAgPMVYT1RwETIeTciNxAiEBVactM8jvh89d Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:3759 Archived-At: On 07/22/2013 07:12:39 PM, Strake wrote: > On 21/07/2013, Rob Landley wrote: > > What did you have in mind? >=20 > >> > - efficient (elegant) programming > >> > - Why C and scritpting languages, why NOT C++ and autoconf >=20 > This. Too, why not glib, and other such garbage. Never having used glib, I'm not qualified to warn people away from it. I _have_ used C++ fairly extensively and already wrote up a banishment =20 ritual. > >> > - tradeoffs > >> > - code reuse >=20 > including, particularly, polymorphism and composability. I don't know what you mean by this. (I remember the buzzwords, but...) By "code reuse" I meant it's very easy to suck in a lot of code you =20 never have a first user for by grabbing a library that does 1000 things =20 of which you need 3. Environmental dependencies are a form of code =20 complexity, but it's invisible because you seem virtuous by requiring =20 the whole gnome library suite for what turns out to be a network daemon. Alternately, "infrastructure in search of a user" is as bad as =20 premature optimization: hold off writing code until you actually need =20 it. Otherwise the unused code will sit there and bit-rot, never tested or =20 regression tested by anything, making it harder to change your design =20 in response to real world needs both by bulking out the code you need =20 to rewrite to accomodate design changes, and by chaffing the system =20 about what your real world needs actually _are_ since half the code is =20 serving imaginary needs. Plus you have code you're afraid to touch =20 because you can't test whether or not your changes break users you =20 can't find; showing nothing _does_ use it after the fact is proving a =20 negative, notoriously difficult. > >> > - transaction granularity > >> > - taking advantage of SMP without going crazy >=20 > I leave these to someone less ignorant on the matter. >=20 > I would note too that computers are meant to save our time, including, > perhaps above all, the hackers who write code for them. This often > seems ignored or forgotten. My aboriginal linux 260 slide presentation described why native =20 compiling under emulation is better than cross compiling. One reason =20 was throwing processor time at the problem instead of throwing =20 engineering time at the problem. Moore's Law helps with one of these. Rob=