From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/1140 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Kurt H Maier Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: Wiki for musl? Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 23:10:06 -0400 Message-ID: <20120614031006.GB8304@intma.in> References: <20120613181426.GA10035@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20120613183956.GL17860@port70.net> <20120613185127.GA29433@intma.in> <408C4093A95A4EF69AB0357291066A7F@lightcubesolutions.com> <20120613195450.GJ163@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <29654F593379412DB2311B0EFF7CADAE@lightcubesolutions.com> <20120613200006.GK163@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20120613230947.GA66841@intma.in> <20120614002140.GL163@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1339643419 5004 80.91.229.3 (14 Jun 2012 03:10:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:10:19 +0000 (UTC) To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-1141-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Thu Jun 14 05:10:19 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by plane.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Sf0Rt-0008Cv-Ss for gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org; Thu, 14 Jun 2012 05:10:18 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 3724 invoked by uid 550); 14 Jun 2012 03:10:17 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Original-Received: (qmail 3713 invoked from network); 14 Jun 2012 03:10:17 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120614002140.GL163@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:1140 Archived-At: On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 08:21:40PM -0400, Rich Felker wrote: > I assume you're talking about the live preview. What about submitting > changes without reloading the page? To me that makes a big difference > in the usability impression - avoiding the discontinuity of the screen > disappearing for a second, the scrollbar getting reset, etc. Since this was never meant to be how http works, this is a non-trivial requirement. In fact, it's a general case that the program must be written from the ground up to support such behavior. The only wiki software I'm familiar with which provides this sort of functionality is mojomojo. > Nice, so it's all static aside from edits? Not necessarily -- it *can* use cgi or fastcgi for lots of things. But in its default installation, yes. One exception is for what they call "discussion" pages -- those get dynamically managed, usually until some cronjob dumps the data to disk and the site is recompiled. Users don't notice this process. > It's not that I want things to "look ajaxy". I don't mind if they look > like the first websites from the early 90s with no styling, default > fonts, no custom buttons, etc., but I do like having a responsive > interface without discontinuities. This is what I meant by "look ajaxy." http is a fetch/display protocol; html is a markup language designed to be rendered once. dynamic document alteration and xmlhttprequest are what ajax is all about. > For pure static content broken into > logical pages, I'm perfectly happy without any ajax, but if the site > is something interactive/editable or an "application" of sorts, I > don't like it to feel like a second-class citizen in the world of > applications. > > Graceful fallback to non-AJAX when JS is disabled (or in browsers that > don't support JS) is of course a requirement for an accessible site. That graceful degradation is a unicorn that has never been caught. The de facto solution that web people have adopted is in the style of google: AJAX wherever possible, with a failover site written in regular HTML. The two front ends share no components and will double your development and maintenance costs up front. Recently Google has begun to drop the HTML alternatives; GMail is a notable exception. You should consider whether it's worth your time to support both front ends; most places ignore the non-ajax crew. I would prefer not to, but you'll receive no acrimony from me if you make that decision.