From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/3565 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Szabolcs Nagy Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: New articles on ewontfix Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 19:12:03 +0200 Message-ID: <20130707171203.GD15323@port70.net> References: <20130704164845.GA14035@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <4F9B79E1CAB949A2B6315F4A2AB900FE@lightcubesolutions.com> <20130704175806.GQ29800@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20130705155411.GR29800@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20130707122012.GC15323@port70.net> <20130707152740.GY29800@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1373217138 27073 80.91.229.3 (7 Jul 2013 17:12:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 17:12:18 +0000 (UTC) To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-3569-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Sun Jul 07 19:12:20 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by plane.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1UvsVU-0006uN-Hl for gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org; Sun, 07 Jul 2013 19:12:16 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 14320 invoked by uid 550); 7 Jul 2013 17:12:15 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Original-Received: (qmail 14311 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2013 17:12:15 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20130707152740.GY29800@brightrain.aerifal.cx> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:3565 Archived-At: * Rich Felker [2013-07-07 11:27:40 -0400]: > On Sun, Jul 07, 2013 at 02:20:15PM +0200, Szabolcs Nagy wrote: > > * Rich Felker [2013-07-05 11:54:11 -0400]: > > > My thought is that it would be based on the property of > > > being able to combine two programs with well-defined behavior, both > > > using the library code, into a single program where each original > > > program runs starting with its own initial thread, such that the > > > combined program does not invoke UB and the two sub-programs match > > > their behavior before being combined. > > > > i think library safety should also cover single thread issues > > It attempts to. Having the "test" be with threads automatically covers > all cases of using the library separately from multiple modules. > ah ok but then "program with well-defined behavior" is hard to specify (i thought you assume working programs and only require that their combination does not break) if well-defined can be any program that the language and the library documentation allows in a single-threaded execution then the program itself may invoke ub in multi-threaded case and a library interface can require a callback that does impossible things so no program is well-defined > > unbounded resource usage, > > I don't see how this can be quantified correctly, but in some sense, > it is by the proposed definition. If part A consumes so many resources > that part B can't run, that would be a failure of the test. However > I'm reluctant to call that a failure since it could make any library > fail. This is why the definition is difficult to get right. if the library documents its resource usage then it can pass the strong test (and there are per-thread resources: stack) we also want that low resources or runtime failures are handled and don't cause ub: so the runtime environment should be part of the definition in some way by unbounded resources i originally meant resource leaks, but "resource safety" seems to be hard to specify in general > > strong assumtions about the environment..) > > Could you elaborate? by environment i meant the system surrounding the program and strong assumption is anything that is not guaranteed eg if a library tries to connect to some webserver to get some information that is present locally as well, then it assumes internet connection unjustifiably