From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14578 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2023 06:59:01 -0000 Received: from second.openwall.net (193.110.157.125) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Jun 2023 06:59:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 16206 invoked by uid 550); 1 Jun 2023 06:58:57 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-ID: Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com Received: (qmail 16174 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2023 06:58:56 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=inria.fr; s=dc; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to: references:mime-version; bh=qu0KC1ch9zD3zPWlBmBNfZgxxTklXrEmzLU50XYaffY=; b=dhOmGiI2VN0l+yCVM4vltj7F8qwtw7F6TN1j048r0JaVmZxzt94n8U5A pAUQkcVMtZlpSw297fxRJk7arP4y48Axt+OxyU/McRIVjtRMnVQqW/ud3 wRN5xtcsrIjJguj8oNF38tROsvMv4MxuzCY/s4Koradco1zuR+1wVwVuc s=; Authentication-Results: mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr; dkim=none (message not signed) header.i=none; spf=SoftFail smtp.mailfrom=jens.gustedt@inria.fr; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) d=inria.fr X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="6.00,209,1681164000"; d="scan'208";a="110625064" Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 08:58:42 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?SuKCkeKCmeKCmw==?= Gustedt To: Rich Felker Cc: musl@lists.openwall.com Message-ID: <20230601085842.2abf2921@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: <20230531213922.GK4163@brightrain.aerifal.cx> References: <20230531195928.GJ4163@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20230531230012.06369e12@inria.fr> <20230531213922.GK4163@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Organization: inria.fr X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.0.0 (GTK+ 3.24.33; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAACRQTFRFERslNjAsLTE9Ok9wUk9TaUs8iWhSrYZkj42Rz6aD3sGZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/IQ=jtRIIJYqqkiz3iEl6omA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Subject: Re: [musl] Re: High-level C23 process requests --Sig_/IQ=jtRIIJYqqkiz3iEl6omA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich, on Wed, 31 May 2023 17:39:23 -0400 you (Rich Felker ) wrote: > On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 11:00:12PM +0200, J=E2=82=91=E2=82=99=E2=82=9B Gu= stedt wrote: > > Hello Rich, > > so now your are putting the blame on me, is that it? =20 >=20 > I'm trying my best not to, despite being really frustrated. ok so, the frustration seems to be mutual > ... > I think we're coming at this with very different goals. From what I > can gather (apologies if this turns out to be inaccurate), to you musl > looks like a place that's accessible to implement all the new things > C23 offers or allows, in a fairly straightforward way, that makes it > possible to test these things and get started with using new language > features you took part in shaping. That's at least not the whole story. I used musl to try things out, yes, but I would never have engaged in such a project of doing the whole C23 changes if I would not have thought that it would be helpful. > To myself and others in this community, though, there's mixed > sentiment towards new things. hm > Already I've heard various comments to the effect that folks think > C23 is this big bad thing designed by committee to impose new > requirements nobody wants on implementations, calls to boycott it, > etc. That is surprising. WG14 put a lot (really *a lot*) of effort in trying not to impose ABI changes and only to integrate things that were already present in the field. You can see that from the patches I proposed, most of it is really boring stuff that compilers, OSes or C libraries already had as extensions. At some points standardization implies naming changes or to do marginal things a bit differently than they had been in the field before, I think this is part of the game. AFAICS, there are only three mandatory new library features that were more or less inventions - `printf` and `scanf` new length prefixes - - Where the latter isn't even really a library feature but a language feature interfaced with a header. As I already said, the principal goal of the first was to go around the `intmax_t` ABI freeze. The second comes from very explicit users requests, and a lot of this is already present in compilers as builtins. Users actually wanted to have much more than there is in this header, now, but we weren't able to finish them in time. Also, in the compiler community there does not seem to be much of a resistance to implement C23. clang and gcc are almost complete and probably will have all of C23 the day it will be officially published. They will then probably switch to C23 as a default one or two versions later, once the C library support is stable. > That is very much NOT my view, but it's one that comes up and that > I'm stuck mediating. And new requirements often do make it more > difficult to preserve properties existing users/community want and > expect. The new possibility of optionally supporting `[u]int128_t` is also an explicit user request. You might not have encountered it within musl's community, but it is real. > ... > I very much appreciate and respect your work on the standardization > process and your support for and contributions to musl, but I'd be > lying if I said this present engagement isn't really frustrating to > me. As you've said, though, I think it's "almost finished", and I'll > do my best to focus on technical matters (vs style etc.) of the parts > that are appropriate and needed C23 support. We do agree then at least on that part. So I am looking forward for any such technical matters that you still might want to raise. Thanks J=E2=82=91=E2=82=99=E2=82=9B --=20 :: ICube :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: deputy director :: :: Universit=C3=A9 de Strasbourg :::::::::::::::::::::: ICPS :: :: INRIA Nancy Grand Est :::::::::::::::::::::::: Camus :: :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: =E2=98=8E +33 368854536 :: :: https://icube-icps.unistra.fr/index.php/Jens_Gustedt :: --Sig_/IQ=jtRIIJYqqkiz3iEl6omA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQSN9stI2OFN1pLljN0P0+hp2tU34gUCZHhBowAKCRAP0+hp2tU3 4mDbAJ9y0JqBmelxpp/FGYPVtLtF/CVAvwCaAt8wkGPOfM2J+agOfg2aXAtO6fE= =LFma -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/IQ=jtRIIJYqqkiz3iEl6omA--