From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=5.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from mother.openwall.net (mother.openwall.net [195.42.179.200]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with SMTP id 8a0d133d for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 21:42:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 9857 invoked by uid 550); 18 Feb 2020 21:42:44 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-ID: Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com Received: (qmail 9837 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2020 21:42:44 -0000 To: musl@lists.openwall.com References: From: "A. Wilcox" Autocrypt: addr=awilfox@adelielinux.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBE+DjPIBEADTQ1H/e/avDUhgt8+T3TJpjGYoY9Y47EMfHqWMm9LjR9aiZSG6GWRbpjWS 4V0DqzIhNQw7HLkPws9CVqQkmpIeltQyGDV2qcR5AXxJ4lCRWHxwRzWE0cCzhLUR9BBWOO0U NINQY+2IqmzRAqXZ9zL+mGTles/qeheXmaWLKf/T0kqJFihoM+ItQvUWOkWUdVv0prhzXr9Q QUdt0NTIW8n4sPwtuSvQgqwSzCJQArh1myugVSGiIIN38pCU8g41Vh35mHHhbHjbn0o1mhrX B/gbsndGo7QQBKz4CPaSel+Fl92dCvVWTp1XYyjqeZx2xlx1zfDrXOTuzY1WmNHi7BgHYuem tG7Zyp7u9MR6FvLKgQhmvCQZXaa+9oNtwKckxoP/I5R8ede9YRb6pLyG5JC0pTTk7kpUZCX2 tm8pLKy899zomm8BBm71aEJHE44ABEl/PbM7tA7XhSPiWsdBmVCxH4bqpUgGMx0ztqhNsUul SDDhiAWgtYFHATynhmeKBDKthkO7lj4CzwI54dn1uiwDtvUFVyVsPMjJcCxFnONbOPcvm1R9 sDg5sn57dv0f+EtaU3ppZdotutjM9X7OEC93d1flO3k1LO20qn2ZcI24f3tEOLAjn5xZ1GdV 3BYBwrtuaaiO8tMdp0uAtILzkkrcr0vOi2/SngxtXFw+44X+WQARAQABtDNBLiBXaWxjb3gg KEFkw6lsaWUgTGludXgpIDxhd2lsZm94QGFkZWxpZWxpbnV4Lm9yZz6JAjoEEwEIACQCGwMF CwkIBwIGFQgJCgsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlhEpGYCGQEACgkQyynLUZIrnRQu5RAAqxHJdNIQ ucYYUaYX4EHJte4OAZbxXeGgMi4fe4m2qkMrd8U6VDfRbjsqETK7fOJdrIjvp+xrMTMvj36C LZ5YuBVmvTd4+Qn54y+8doMUtZppjW9Njwols3zCeaZR/4Iid2GjS7+avgVEhMuxlo5apygb n84VhdLRPAs2BtyqUWUhlLs2nXg6kzI/yT8frGGCN36Xewe35jrhl7h4d54t7h+wYcYw52Yt GHs/R+yPlCGPrlzh8IGwjDWDaUrQAqWdU3B2UG4g/yn/JYZrkvfbm7AhpBP5trY2jbm7sfTM NoClDDwgf0K8Kfj0LeBUzOLqGgQNBdaJ2x7f1xq5tJjAPmVL6oMElqyDz9ycUXvelLMnxgXI sjndF+K1aKjg6Ok68BfTo+tnUqmEjqAhjLBCSphQJavww8pU9KSPmxOr0GfjoiYELeoCdTe2 U44bhFwCcf5tG1qdu8l4pes1YPRVAVyr4J/BlS2e3FyU3MsYlma9toYghJZ0k9dVOqx5YXj9 B2keDpX1D7uEJUHpoRSPylLYKJCcNuzrsaK0gvczkgUvhaiij8qnlLEmDsv7KMdsv+qxknNC vdCBgoiYn01ZJZJrlllOEXpVAXfQDKcqGnIJ4GX87TIu3hR94tw4LOCayfRpN2Y4zlACPLaZ KiSon4ySDo+ooYQ8WgwH1y1ESsa5Ag0ET4OM8gEQAOI/n9h9v2TBOiLUt/nL+HOdxqvkfrKp mDHXx6ctJSm0VBHhHCxKN6Tk2B0BsUXcgR+BD76Tw4kTQvuj3E87m13xHRtASdCmnkvGhU4c JJ9ZbJbJhPLNr9qPUxwCQxFyMrFri/9GnE0Kbv5FfxsLQy9Slubnyg3CfI/wIP5pOoVFA2qI UmsQS155DmhbV2m0FDf0san01ZRMFYVcUUktcmFo0Xmr6PAxZ0FTaxSF8+921lKrvShcsnMv Osrf5toJGEdQw/IMO5rKH1m+q3qWQAOw4uF4WQJrGvhEsVK8G4mC6EBDTbxFVDtyBTMAGUVS t+Yb5i0iIYiMAP2MEJ+twg58PV+5RglheTGP9iPW0xReI1sOD9jfIrQbwqWpOchDGBUpQx4q DFYzzcbjvAP1k2o0mwMby5DJlVwktUiXXtOWZXKZXfTnCA65x1bC6gbtMrXN1CWkyjKT9xj9 Z5WlpZaeqe2SZkLG3/N7r4bSbw/Z6NsYeJ8CpSe6SfoWSsjebD6kbXlF5dsQf8aMUjaZAHp0 UpinfgWNh+58128yddsRMsidjU/MmwhzcRFsvn3rkgtnK4IwpLEfssChNPa26qwfcsvQ+AQU CCRd/GIZ8AkOVySQ30J8Assa/T3nc6VNKRVgsAiSClkeqVevAZmUMUbvH8f3cTe1VFn6kR3q pvfTABEBAAGJAh8EGAECAAkFAk+DjPICGwwACgkQyynLUZIrnRQifQ//f++reIP4el9Un1w4 11boSy1iBALnv58YSQQHPIZ4dq5hr8P1Hp3GDz+o6JFKeIHq5RYw2ornumS9waDbz7dRD1nc N5sMoVfR2g2P7honq59r3velxX36PmifHMmxb8MTqbCSJJRisqjWTMg7CZxH0NQ28qMtpiAw kvoEb+l2Uc/gKnvcpPfVJ/X0b3go0xAe9GA7Os9thjtl1v+I7c2+xjPUtvv+pDGRb9To2+Sw zOGwogbTrVw7KgAFhktx6i8tenXZRf36O0GTACRY//qHNoNNy5H4LYmfyHj6VU2ehwNJTlkK H/8oYV7fkOdcs6DZAnxeiOXUKpHC6ck0D0sWQ42GTeEraospQevGTrp1FZdYnfXznUFXuC6W jHR9piQehutMJ1vCP+DIRLGOMzV1TFWflpo71lb4AFLU3UOS/N7Cd8F+w1nG3WPn7UjFCMrc Xf268AEe0xwakXgNtwo2MTbtQSAO5AKYyGm/hnoLZg4YQ2eBPU95jUV+GMoEM/8Q0BJgsyF0 66NfhBXtuo50AipcARmnoqi6NDOKpC6mqiEYGsVuyQ9cRtkk9Jl98tXmnjxQlSL2nb4ErwJJ SyJq3hwiKMUJcw88IRNtYBe+dXaW4kDBTRha1k+brWZbu4tUlRWLVcSGjtP1pVukXA/SQ6a1 N7qhRF0UHQZkMW1rGbU= Organization: =?UTF-8?Q?Ad=c3=a9lie_Linux?= Message-ID: <543bcfcc-41f8-6960-8b6a-8e7fd5f01a01@adelielinux.org> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:42:26 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux ppc64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LqlZIjDbvV5zqy9ffid46Nvbs7z3ZtgWI" Subject: Re: [musl] Locale support considered harmful noise This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --LqlZIjDbvV5zqy9ffid46Nvbs7z3ZtgWI Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="XuIV4ZrRM6GqxW2dEO3bVz20uOYSegCbN" --XuIV4ZrRM6GqxW2dEO3bVz20uOYSegCbN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18/02/2020 13:38, Jacob Welsh wrote: > Hello, >=20 > In TMSR we've made extensive use of musl, due to the very welcome dose > of clear and concise code it provides as compared to the competition > [1]. For example we have a static Ada compiler [2], the Bitcoin > reference implementation [3], a reproducible and self-contained Gentoo > system [4], and not least of all my own distribution [5] used in my > consulting business [6]. >=20 > However, the apparent goal of aggressive expansion of Unicode and > localization "features" in musl sets off alarms; for instance, on the > roadmap [7] I see: Why do you not believe that musl could provide any of these features using clear and concise code? >> Unicode 12.1 update and related character handling work This is necessary for actual real-world users that need to use the symbols added since the last Unicode update. For example, Unicode 12.1 added the symbol for the new Japanese era, Reiwa Era. You will be unable to represent current dates in the Japanese calendar without this update. >> Locale support overhaul. Also very important for real-world users that wish to use languages besides English to communicate with their computer. >> Hostname resolver support for non-ASCII domains (IDN) IDN domains are gaining significant traction, especially in Asia and the Middle East. >> LC_COLLATE support for collation orders other than simple codepoint or= der I have been personally impacted by the lack of LC_COLLATE support. >> Support for LC_MONETARY and LC_NUMERIC properties. This is necessary for a better desktop experience; especially LC_NUMERIC is egregious since many cultures/countries utilise , as the decimal separator. >> Message translation support for dynamic linker This will allow non-English speakers the ability to understand the errors that are happening on the computers they own. >> Locale data and libc message translations This is somewhat already possible with https://github.com/rilian-la-te/musl-locales - it would basically just be upstreaming the translation files into musl proper (to ensure they are kept up-to-date) and adding messages that are not already translated.= > We think this is such a bad idea that it threatens to undermine musl's > otherwise substantial virtues. This kind of bloat imposes real costs on= > the users that matter - namely the literate ones, who value predictable= , > stable and bug-free code - in exchange for entirely unclear benefits. No one user matters more than another. musl's own self-description is: "musl is lightweight, fast, simple, free, and strives to be correct in the sense of standards-conformance and safety." Locale support can be lightweight, fast, simple, free, and correct. In fact, musl is *not* conformant to the POSIX standard *because* it does not implement the requisite locale support. The benefits are the ability for people in non-English speaking cultures and countries to be able to use systems based on musl instead of being stuck with inferior alternatives. Anglocentrism has no place in Libre software. > Especially considering the rate at which bugs are still turning up, > there is no justification for this added complexity. In any event we > will not be using "upgrades" that import additional nonsense into this > critical system component. There is absolutely justification for these features: Wolfram Alpha[1] quotes the number of English speakers to be approximately 11% of the world population. That means 89% of living people on Earth cannot currently fully utilise musl-based systems the way they could if it was possible to support non-English languages. Adding better locale support will fix this. --arw [1]: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=3Dnumber+of+english+speakers --=20 A. Wilcox (awilfox) Project Lead, Ad=C3=A9lie Linux https://www.adelielinux.org --XuIV4ZrRM6GqxW2dEO3bVz20uOYSegCbN-- --LqlZIjDbvV5zqy9ffid46Nvbs7z3ZtgWI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEjNyWOYPU1SaTSMHHyynLUZIrnRQFAl5MWkIACgkQyynLUZIr nRSY1g//XJh0uCkNDjQM+zFF78OIiojCZNaeVnPi9E/ca/CQKcEjgtbS+I3ZFPUB ++IktReEPiTtbS6PwJ4WonyqAvkAdxzKu1prkDLGW6wg21Bsll0GHQQxJpgDPKKE Ap/eQYEUnE58L/dNqCzRkeV68ZYExPcbGL8na1yJuXVyyR8yoRi1dVY2lU48H3xV LjrGP/OnIHbAtHEK1drR4dBwu6wu+y0b+3koyAaqi2mchzAi4Pzg1ffwhh723+uU 3DjqlSUmxO3hhBKqJYtsyQDHrMUdkIDDlg4bjRSx8OZefKzuizuuMamg9E9QvKmQ pWOcFMQDLljl14EWrjqH7DUw+9eiLiNAspvNGrwDyirW7Zx5yNr0hM1U24Upqlba +SjX07UJvlj1WHhS/w5HbzC0N7hqSe+zq6Ska0MWsAL5YKhevXMHOTjEQ+JIrj7g kyuq99wu4KaJJkI2mRP90y17cxLJ8NQJMmijGB6O5uiCpawMiprOzeBPMaqP4c/Z yqoIqyGRLzE5AWRIGtq3hxsMC5l/Kwr9fRbdbWEYSHtZHe2FoAJVx3AfOM0pIDii WnDtrexS6L7ruBUulbw2W3kaqEuBFjhwYAruX9Qx9RsVpYLrIAbipoWfR3HFlFxk XMaKDQNMwk0H5G5cvxSlPyVrFpwuMfM8ytzyVWUpMSZHLf0/I1Y= =rWem -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LqlZIjDbvV5zqy9ffid46Nvbs7z3ZtgWI--