From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/14330 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "A. Wilcox" Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: Revisiting 64-bit time_t Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 10:55:30 -0500 Organization: =?UTF-8?Q?Ad=c3=a9lie_Linux?= Message-ID: <61734cf0-d52d-efa0-800f-49a153772bd5@adelielinux.org> References: <20190628150659.GD1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <3424A001-EBF1-412E-B0F4-A7E834966807@adelielinux.org> <20190629162116.GJ1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <4ebd51a5-e6c6-bba9-4608-fb5133ed15ab@adelielinux.org> <20190701154116.GS1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6mEMMvwblR2k7Wba5o64u84kOBqQxG6n3" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="224664"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux ppc64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-14346-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Mon Jul 01 17:55:51 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by blaine.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hhyek-000wGH-Jx for gllmg-musl@m.gmane.org; Mon, 01 Jul 2019 17:55:50 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 11625 invoked by uid 550); 1 Jul 2019 15:55:48 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-ID: Original-Received: (qmail 11599 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2019 15:55:47 -0000 Openpgp: preference=signencrypt In-Reply-To: <20190701154116.GS1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:14330 Archived-At: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --6mEMMvwblR2k7Wba5o64u84kOBqQxG6n3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="KM2u0YWNRBHpqjHFBKmdYyIiobIShPc1M"; protected-headers="v1" From: "A. Wilcox" To: musl@lists.openwall.com Message-ID: <61734cf0-d52d-efa0-800f-49a153772bd5@adelielinux.org> Subject: Re: [musl] Revisiting 64-bit time_t References: <20190628150659.GD1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <3424A001-EBF1-412E-B0F4-A7E834966807@adelielinux.org> <20190629162116.GJ1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <4ebd51a5-e6c6-bba9-4608-fb5133ed15ab@adelielinux.org> <20190701154116.GS1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> In-Reply-To: <20190701154116.GS1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> --KM2u0YWNRBHpqjHFBKmdYyIiobIShPc1M Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07/01/19 10:41, Rich Felker wrote: > On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:50:31AM -0500, A. Wilcox wrote: >> Ad=C3=A9lie rebuilds all packages for every release, and encourages us= ers to >> use `apk upgrade -al` which will /replace/ all of world for every >> upgrade, so we'd be very happy with b). Make everything as correct as= >> possible, as quickly as possible, with just a simple upgrade for users= >> (as long as they have no self-compiled software installed). >> >> There is already no real "third-party" binary for 32-bit musl computer= s, >> so I'm not sure if that's relevant. For glibc binaries, we have gcomp= at >> which could easily "shadow" time_t functions with 32-bit versions for = as >> long as glibc binaries continue to have a need. >=20 > I think this ignores the reality that a lot of users of any distro > except Debian pretty much *have to* build some software from source, > since there's so much more software out there than what you can > package without contributor bases and infrastructure that size. If you > break or switch ABI, you invalidate all the existing self-built > software a user has (unless they static-linked, but that might not be > an option if the software needs dlopen). >=20 > Admittedly distros are not doing a great job with this already. For > example when I updated Alpine, a bunch of my self-built software > stopped working because it uninstalled the old boost packages with the > matching API/ABI. I'm not sure how well Ad=C3=A9lie fairs in this regar= d. > But in principle it's something that should be able to work. And this > is a large part of the motivation for why musl committed to stable > ABIs and of the motivation for musl rather than improving uclibc. >=20 > Rich I specifically did mention "as long as they have no self-compiled software installed". At Ad=C3=A9lie we have policies that we won't ever sobump things like Boo= st, Qt, etc except between major versions. So Ad=C3=A9lie 1.x, for all three= years, through 1.9, will always have boost 1.69.0 and Qt 5.9 etc. Smaller libraries may or may not sobump; we consider addition of APIs fine as long as no changes or removals were made (so ABI remains "constant" for existing apps). Ah yes, ffmpeg, that was the other big one we decided to be careful about in minor releases. The only reason we're still bumping right now is because we're still in beta and haven't released 1.0 yet, so we haven't committed to the 1.0 ABI. And that is primarily because we don't have an installer, though all the massive CVEs in major packages have been eating up a lot of our time... So, if musl were to do this, we wouldn't have the "new musl" available until Ad=C3=A9lie 2.0, which will be 18 months after 1.0 is released. Bu= t, at the time you upgrade 1.x -> 2.0, you are already aware you are changing ABI for practically every library on the system, so you should be fully aware of that ahead of time. Best to you and yours, --arw --=20 A. Wilcox (awilfox) Project Lead, Ad=C3=A9lie Linux https://www.adelielinux.org --KM2u0YWNRBHpqjHFBKmdYyIiobIShPc1M-- --6mEMMvwblR2k7Wba5o64u84kOBqQxG6n3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEjNyWOYPU1SaTSMHHyynLUZIrnRQFAl0aLPIACgkQyynLUZIr nRTEABAApZmHRnW6WnfJbk8ZBCjy7Dy3azwr6XY6xqSb7F9zJ2Yaq2b4u7B1R3uz BuGRoKFwukJC9mImCQmVmdKWC9aajglAM0ZDedFi6xX99CBqezmVT8m0GY8vx9Vq bP+KvdfSwmtJlcUUl7U2f6pZ9JFTFh/eofBM5tqxylUu7htaCwlKG6MHCE9a+89F PHqCu+340VWf42Egplj3iuDEnL3pBOpeIHk/gnBNwV1FEznqqMObnhOr10U1R8lM 0xvfpVntv0bvp1SbKBTai4D6LkIeoyBiYPf0OuvmjHfGXoxBGQbycpA3Daf17dnA Xw5YGmRf0Mc+sEPZQOjLkV13/JXenS9AcKhhV0wU473aiMq4QZNJrlw+X5pCycj7 MuG2+2gVkNg5H48QrNJMF/hqL5ileWlmM8HEkHGwQCdWVTTlUFmHKb/iw7zgkvo0 3b6q/d1VUzyb24aySeY2typRwW11kbrNxIOPMlb2geW8IpawWOnbshohu7SDG2dF kik2LdyUTfBro2jtzzNUEXuyWUpXlnvxuKHy5eacvIYuy478hoidOi2ZNPa0DnvQ r/CL41ggc0PodgkiTwObjsnkncpVXgdLMXMNllSNYgKRAujNJtmFinBmjyAzZDu3 rEe6lP4xM/vKXc1Be+WAwb6qPRep4I/UaZL40BVjau5Pe+KioUQ= =hPqy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6mEMMvwblR2k7Wba5o64u84kOBqQxG6n3--