From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.4 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 488 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2022 17:54:51 -0000 Received: from mother.openwall.net (195.42.179.200) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Jan 2022 17:54:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 22442 invoked by uid 550); 28 Jan 2022 17:54:48 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-ID: Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com Received: (qmail 22407 invoked from network); 28 Jan 2022 17:54:47 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dereferenced.org; s=mailbun; t=1643392473; bh=qEv4PW5gnVrxqgOTrK65USYSRENuXt7L/EJTv/V5FZA=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=c1uY9m2y17+9sxUvXECj9rqfOrc6pgiaZjIYt4TzZFJVz5CZBD46Y9NGhqdrmoAH9 MzwKCkLdIv0nY68A5MGBeVsBfjEUM7Rc5jgUKFsGiQr8DC+F2wy4B7sriI3rYndQ+Q 7JSkDfkOmeBeG0QpRt+dGlZY/NeoU4nz5PDYf3htYmUFnZtcDXChLhwcDxjIff1f8p iVbDQw/PSjE0Au40RLmUWAFA4dkAx/GGTFOwjVDmQUv+S0tbiosNelvuVmpbYJ/c9O YmktYxtcHtB6GcDi1PZCuTApSz3vlIlpjKDBoacTtavv5gmz7VSkeAJQkQ8MYyQ+nB r4Qa8/XVG8JaA== Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 11:54:26 -0600 (CST) From: Ariadne Conill To: musl@lists.openwall.com cc: ellie In-Reply-To: <20220128141049.GI7074@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Message-ID: <695a52ca-a8f-54aa-a892-b739cd2d6bff@dereferenced.org> References: <20220128141049.GI7074@brightrain.aerifal.cx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [musl] A journey of weird file sorting and desktop systems Hi, On Fri, 28 Jan 2022, Rich Felker wrote: > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 02:41:38PM +0100, ellie wrote: >> After spending a bit wondering why files like "elder1" and "Elder2" >> end up at completely different spots in the file list on my >> postmarketOS (=Alpine-based) system, I filed a ticket with the Nemo >> file manager. Turns out Nemo just uses locale-dependent sorting, so >> I spent an hour trying to set LC_COLLATE to fix this, until I >> stumbled across the remark on musl's website that LC_COLLATE sorting >> is simply not supported. So I seem to be stuck with this, which I >> did not expect. >> >> This to me seems kind of disastrous on a desktop system. I just fail >> to see any average default user (who doesn't know ASCII in their >> head) expecting "elder1" and "Elder2" to be miles apart in a sorted >> listing even as a default US person, let alone in some other >> language that may be expected to use a different sorting for >> whatever reason. (This affects umlauts too, I assume? So that'd be >> most European languages having file lists entirely messed up, too.) >> The sorting shouldn't be stuck as something that just makes sense to >> programmers and balks at any special vowels, and it appears at least >> as of now there is just no way to fix this. >> >> Should desktop file managers like Nemo not be using this sorting >> function? Or is musl not intended for desktop use, and postmarketOS >> should switch? Otherwise, it seems like this omission in musl seems >> like kind of a big deal. Or is it really just me who is constantly >> confused as to where any file is at in any file lists...? >> >> Or in other words, would be kind of cool if this could be changed > > LC_COLLATE functionality is just not designed or implemented yet, due > to lack of interest/participation from folks who want it to happen. I > very much do want it to happen, but I don't want to design something > (data model for efficient collation tables & code to use them) only to > have it turn out not to meet everyone's/anyone's needs because there > was nobody to bounce questions/testing/what-if's off during the > design. > > A big part of this is probably that, historically, *nix users tend to > be happy with (or even prefer, which they can explicitly set via > exporting LC_COLLATE=C) codepoint-order sorting of directory entries, > like Makefile and README appearing at the top. So to get these folks > to care you have to have another setting where collation order > matters. A case-study might be PostgreSQL, but I believe we solved collation there by using the ICU library instead. Ariadne