From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/6916 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: stephen Turner Newsgroups: gmane.linux.toybox,gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: [musl] kernel design Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 16:41:31 -0500 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0770244102==" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1422481297 12439 80.91.229.3 (28 Jan 2015 21:41:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 21:41:37 +0000 (UTC) To: musl-ZwoEplunGu1jrUoiu81ncdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org, toybox-oU9gvf+ajcRUPo+8YfT7LV6hYfS7NtTn@public.gmane.org, "aboriginal-oU9gvf+ajcRUPo+8YfT7LV6hYfS7NtTn@public.gmane.org" Original-X-From: toybox-bounces-oU9gvf+ajcRUPo+8YfT7LV6hYfS7NtTn@public.gmane.org Wed Jan 28 22:41:37 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: glt-toybox@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from che.dreamhost.com ([66.33.216.23]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YGaMi-0004ph-GE for glt-toybox@m.gmane.org; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 22:41:37 +0100 Original-Received: from che.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by che.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B674104A9; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:41:33 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from mail-yk0-f180.google.com (mail-yk0-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) by che.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A503910282; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:41:31 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by mail-yk0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 131so10247838ykp.11; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:41:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=utz2HRLwVgGVF0rNK/6gnFjUXsn+6pF2/deopaqaUHI=; b=maH4LS+VCdKegG7IUy+G6xkIZynCgFqz+tvZk0tv6YczEyi7Il3uPSiSPVaQPmBdXD EPHbazKwFbaYAxyg7MM+bPrMHc4s39+FFnYM2SPwOJYYcct745F5jBmzQ+LRn5LPg0Hz DMddN9ZkpYLVvwYwMbiPye/Y5VUxNpIPsC+1k3KiJhdYNhpWigg0C87rSAw1NrAxCG++ uSX5xlcxqT82oFNIacg6WWawhUDT4JMjGR/Nh5yMzKGssBzMXjDAfVchhHy3P7hE98xN uoQApTfU00Wr2ywo+PuYf9+e27Qz/EuDua/gt6/Kr9RxJtThAZ9VX9SAysYWhAqWPdNR XZKA== X-Received: by 10.236.30.98 with SMTP id j62mr1976133yha.105.1422481291104; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:41:31 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.170.214.137 with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jan 2015 13:41:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: toybox-oU9gvf+ajcRUPo+8YfT7LV6hYfS7NtTn@public.gmane.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: All-in-one linux command line utility package List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: toybox-bounces-oU9gvf+ajcRUPo+8YfT7LV6hYfS7NtTn@public.gmane.org Original-Sender: "Toybox" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.toybox:1898 gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:6916 Archived-At: --===============0770244102== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e011838820e58f8050dbd3c3d --089e011838820e58f8050dbd3c3d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Rich and Rob, Have you seen the new flash ram technology coming out? SSD strapped to a ram bus and its fast. http://highscalability.com/blog/2012/1/19/is-it-time-to-get-rid-of-the-linux-os-model-in-the-cloud.html Rich, since you tweeted about kernel stuff this is a good thing to keep in mind if your still looking at it. The I/O of devices is changing and apparently linux is still a huge bottleneck to work with. According to this it takes linux 20k instructions to perform a simple I/O request. The more i read about the exo kernel stuff the more it seemed like all you needed was the exo kernel and a lib to compensate for the missing kernel bits which i wonder if it could be mostly a pass through with the kernel not babysitting anymore. exciting times. stephen On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 12:12 PM, stephen Turner wrote: > On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Nathan McSween > wrote: > >> An exokernel just multiplexes resources, similar concept to 'unikernel' >> design such as ellcc bare metal project except that unikernels includes the >> api within the kernel (as I understand). IMO the best would a single >> address space but would require a language that could guarantee safety, you >> would still need to the split though to verify that it isn't something that >> shouldn't be loaded though. Correct me if I'm wrong. >> On Jan 28, 2015 7:41 AM, "stephen Turner" >> wrote: >> >>> so I have found 4 kernel types, exo, mono, mach, hybrid. >>> >>> the Exo sounds like the way to go but im curious if it could be built to >>> work with the existing linux world without rewriting everything for it. >>> since i have no programming knowledge im just curious what you guys think >>> about it if you have given it any thought. >>> >>> It is definately the ideal for hypervisors and with what little i have >>> read thus far feels like it manages hardware usage like containers but >>> without most of the kernel overhead to do so. >>> >>> Im getting tickled about this exo kernel. think i will go find more on >>> it. >>> >>> stephen >>> >> > Unikernels is that bare metal stuff is it not? so then that elk project > (is it elk?) is a unikernel + Musl + what ever linkage (syscalls and api?) > is needed to support native linux apps? > > If i am understanding this still out of my element programming jargon, exo > kernels don't manage the apps they take a step back and simply supervise. > this leaves the existing gnu applications to speak directly with hardware > which they were not made for by using syscalls that the existing kernel > recognizes. so there would need to be a userspace kernel (now were getting > into mach kernels) of sorts to intermediate for old school apps while > allowing new built for exo kernel apps to do their unencumbered duties. > > sound like wayland + xwayland to anyone else? :-p > > Stephen > --089e011838820e58f8050dbd3c3d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rich and Rob,=C2=A0
Have you seen the new flash ram te= chnology coming out? SSD strapped to a ram bus and its fast.

=

Rich, since you tweeted a= bout kernel stuff this is a good thing to keep in mind if your still lookin= g at it. The I/O of devices is changing and apparently linux is still a hug= e bottleneck to work with. According to this it takes linux 20k instruction= s to perform a simple I/O request. =C2=A0

The more= i read about the exo kernel stuff the more it seemed like all you needed w= as the exo kernel and a lib to compensate for the missing kernel bits which= i wonder if it could be mostly a pass through with the kernel not babysitt= ing anymore.

exciting times.

<= div>stephen

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 12:12 PM, stephen Turner &l= t;stephen.n= .turner-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Nathan McSween <nwmc= sween-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

An= exokernel just multiplexes resources, similar concept to 'unikernel= 9; design such as ellcc bare metal project except that unikernels includes = the api within the kernel (as I understand). IMO the best would a single ad= dress space but would require a language that could guarantee safety, you w= ould still need to the split though to verify that it isn't something t= hat shouldn't be loaded though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

<= div>
On Jan 28, 2015 7:41 AM, "stephen Turner&qu= ot; <ste= phen.n.turner-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
so I have found 4 kernel types, exo, mono, mach, hybr= id.

the Exo sounds like the way to go but im curious if = it could be built to work with the existing linux world without rewriting e= verything for it. since i have no programming knowledge im just curious wha= t you guys think about it if you have given it any thought.

<= /div>
It is definately the ideal for hypervisors and with what little i= have read thus far feels like it manages hardware usage like containers bu= t without most of the kernel overhead to do so.=C2=A0

<= div>Im getting tickled about this exo kernel. think i will go find more on = it.

stephen

Unikernels is that bare metal stuff is it not? so then that elk projec= t (is it elk?) is a unikernel + Musl + what ever linkage (syscalls and api?= ) is needed to support native linux apps?

If i am unders= tanding this still out of my element programming jargon, exo kernels don= 9;t manage the apps they take a step back and simply supervise. this leaves= the existing gnu applications to speak directly with hardware which they w= ere not made for by using syscalls that the existing kernel recognizes. so = there would need to be a userspace kernel (now were getting into mach kerne= ls) of sorts to intermediate for old school apps while allowing new built f= or exo kernel apps to do their unencumbered duties.=C2=A0

sound like wayland + xwayland to anyone else? :-p

Stephen

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