From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/4344 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Raphael Cohn Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: _PATH_LASTLOG Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 20:51:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20131203184248.GT1685@port70.net> <20131203195433.GM24286@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20131203202502.GO24286@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <529E4291.1030100@skarnet.org> Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b414f40ab822c04eca774cc X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1386103874 2621 80.91.229.3 (3 Dec 2013 20:51:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 20:51:14 +0000 (UTC) To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-4348-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Tue Dec 03 21:51:21 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by plane.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VnwwC-0005Cz-UR for gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 21:51:21 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 30149 invoked by uid 550); 3 Dec 2013 20:51:20 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Original-Received: (qmail 30141 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2013 20:51:19 -0000 X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=sbF5RPY8sWm1VmKZdAAnLolAOPWTm6y9P3vGQU7PbNI=; b=VIPZtCq+CSnKfA78UA6r33CXz5FXdWlpFBMT4Oxaqt/dWq0GRfxq73CcoFP0WWwIXM 2T87ljGW/YTdE3WgJK2KNJWGsHu+byIOWLrn2Wm1dwx2GMab4CjZExYlDtgWzsl4ZP3y /P0RGxrFNavMLRFB4SafWLKmtEQd1zGOOToo7Np5Kek+oOvqIl30GRcKRYXLHMfQMTLr s1fvtfU/mwvIjmlkQJyeGWMxW9LLByufnSq4rBsb4cZPoufJS4oCLPVq4mwX5V69SMIS AHVDoAIehKG4PUgtkMAudktNfGFVlCunN88OierNjdCTRWgQbE9IUP4h4TqqMVeRHdnx e/4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlRqnQfsSQzfvbVvKdcX93cZ1KQHEXqr3G/8Acfe5Jqh6fOVgTpb47uMOjIpmWE86XtyLDG X-Received: by 10.60.136.132 with SMTP id qa4mr1007087oeb.68.1386103867925; Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:51:07 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2001:8b0:862:b944:a534:c887:3b4d:f028] In-Reply-To: <529E4291.1030100@skarnet.org> Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:4344 Archived-At: --047d7b414f40ab822c04eca774cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I've always believed that the filesystem itself should be used as a packaging system... This is EXACTLY what I want to do. Each package is its own FHS... Raphael Cohn Chief Architect, stormmq Co-Chair, OASIS MQTT Standard Secretary, OASIS AMQP Standard raphael.cohn@stormmq.com +44 7590 675 756 UK Office: Hamblethorpe Farm, Crag Lane, Bradley BD20 9DB, North Yorkshire, United Kingdom Telephone: +44 845 3712 567 Registered office: 16 Anchor Street, Chelmsford, Essex, CM2 0JY, United Kingdom StormMQ Limited is Registered in England and Wales under Company Number 07175657 StormMQ.com On 3 December 2013 20:44, Laurent Bercot wrote: > > One problem I'd like to solve is making a way for users to override >> the system resolv.conf; >> > > The s6-dns client library uses the DNSCACHEIP environment variable for > this: if it contains a list of DNS caches, this list will override the > /etc/resolv.conf-provided one. (The idea comes from djbdns, but has been > extended to a full list instead of a single cache address.) > Same thing with the DNSQUALIFY environment variable, which can have > a list of suffixes that overrides resolv.conf. (djbdns had a complex > rules-rewriting-based qualification mechanism that nobody ever used, > so the simpler approach was easier and better.) > > Maybe musl could use the same approach: environment variables are a > reasonable place for hardcoded-path overrides. But it has to be balanced > against namespace pollution. > > > > This seems like a good foundation for a package system. I've looked >> into Nixos before but never really tried it out, and got the >> impression that the concept was very good but it might not be the best >> implementation. So something similar to Nixos sounds interesting. :-) >> > > I've always believed that the filesystem itself should be used as a > packaging system: every package should have its own system user and reside > in its own directory, and /usr/bin and friends should only contain > symlinks. Native isolation via Unix permissions, atomic package > replacement, > easy package management. But for some reason, people seem absolutely > reluctant to do this. > > > > The philosophy used in musl, which is somewhat different from the sort >> of philosophy you might have when designing a new distribution, is not >> to invent new policy but to avoid policy and build on existing, >> already-widely-accepteed policy when it's unavoidable. >> > > I don't agree with all decisions in musl, but this one I can definitely > stand for. > > > > There are LOTS of ways one could extend hostname lookups, ranging from >> NSS modules to >> hosts.d and resolv.d, but rather than trying to support everything >> imaginable (result: bloat and serious security considerations) in >> libc, the musl approach to hostname lookup is that libc contains the >> basics that are suitable for most/all simple systems, and anything >> more advances can be provided by an external daemon running on >> localhost that speaks DNS protocol and provides whatever lookup >> semantics you desire. >> > > In the DNS case, the flexible - and best, IMNSHO - approach is to run a > small local DNS cache on localhost indeed; but the problem is that there's > an existing codebase that sometimes insists on clobbering /etc/resolv.conf, > which adds to the packaging burden when your purpose is to create or > maintain > a distribution. Having extension mechanisms at the libc level can help in > that situation. > > -- > Laurent > > --047d7b414f40ab822c04eca774cc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've always believed that the filesystem itself s= hould be used as a
packaging system...

This is EXACTLY what I want to do. Each pa= ckage is its own FHS...

Raphael Cohn
Chief Architect, stormmq
Co-Chair, OASIS MQTT S= tandard
Secretary, OASIS AMQP Standard
raphael.cohn@stormmq.com
+44 7590 6= 75 756

UK Office:
Hamblethorpe Farm, Crag Lane, Bradley B= D20 9DB, North Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Telephone: +44 845 3712 567

Registered office:
16 Anchor Street, Chelmsford, E= ssex, CM2 0JY, United Kingdom
StormMQ Limited is Registered in En= gland and Wales under Company Number 07175657
StormMQ.com


On 3 December 2013 20:44, Laurent Bercot= <ska-dietlibc@skarnet.org> wrote:

One problem I'd like to solve is making a way for users to override
the system resolv.conf;

=C2=A0The s6-dns client library uses the DNSCACHEIP environment variable fo= r
this: if it contains a list of DNS caches, this list will override the
/etc/resolv.conf-provided one. (The idea comes from djbdns, but has been extended to a full list instead of a single cache address.)
=C2=A0Same thing with the DNSQUALIFY environment variable, which can have a list of suffixes that overrides resolv.conf. (djbdns had a complex
rules-rewriting-based qualification mechanism that nobody ever used,
so the simpler approach was easier and better.)

=C2=A0Maybe musl could use the same approach: environment variables are a reasonable place for hardcoded-path overrides. But it has to be balanced against namespace pollution.



This seems like a good foundation for a package system. I've looked
into Nixos before but never really tried it out, and got the
impression that the concept was very good but it might not be the best
implementation. So something similar to Nixos sounds interesting. :-)

=C2=A0I've always believed that the filesystem itself should be used as= a
packaging system: every package should have its own system user and reside<= br> in its own directory, and /usr/bin and friends should only contain
symlinks. Native isolation via Unix permissions, atomic package replacement= ,
easy package management. But for some reason, people seem absolutely
reluctant to do this.



The philosophy used in musl, which is somewhat different from the sort
of philosophy you might have when designing a new distribution, is not
to invent new policy but to avoid policy and build on existing,
already-widely-accepteed policy when it's unavoidable.

=C2=A0I don't agree with all decisions in musl, but this one I can defi= nitely
stand for.



There are LOTS of ways one could extend hostname lookups, ranging from =C2= =A0NSS modules to
hosts.d and resolv.d, but rather than trying to support everything
imaginable (result: bloat and serious security considerations) in
libc, the musl approach to hostname lookup is that libc contains the
basics that are suitable for most/all simple systems, and anything
more advances can be provided by an external daemon running on
localhost that speaks DNS protocol and provides whatever lookup
semantics you desire.

=C2=A0In the DNS case, the flexible - and best, IMNSHO - approach is to run= a
small local DNS cache on localhost indeed; but the problem is that there= 9;s
an existing codebase that sometimes insists on clobbering /etc/resolv.conf,=
which adds to the packaging burden when your purpose is to create or mainta= in
a distribution. Having extension mechanisms at the libc level can help in that situation.

--
=C2=A0Laurent


--047d7b414f40ab822c04eca774cc--