From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24108 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2023 15:25:18 -0000 Received: from second.openwall.net (193.110.157.125) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 7 Jul 2023 15:25:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 1231 invoked by uid 550); 7 Jul 2023 15:25:15 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-ID: Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com Received: (qmail 1198 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2023 15:25:14 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1688743503; x=1691335503; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kd4ZEhoUUDZRFGG2sT6ekywH/MvvcQOeFRqP8f3bWec=; b=WgXTGHLSctHax9qXNhFsbU/QLW2vewrYgufZ9/QUVOPzTZHIVUWRlygQQA+/NvM/W9 9GPCLxAbf9ApgNwFhiNeRKN67V0ANf8awk7DyC472O/BpuFZIWJTVxlDI6d7lJul6k5i GuzWbfHGFlGtIQPd5vnDVdBV+4xPCWyxDFTGliL8KmUfUre6Dg2awuR+WhWyNyZ0iViu LzOnmnwQ4i/qD/ogy00zEhefxcjRmzBmdZauG+aOm89DxBcaiP8yXY1ySa+J8Q1VmXZ5 VwL15vWBkUdHI/F5BOZCj4RU6DuC1UKVqC+3FGsnL7cxMoLlHMbCE/PSEf18HvPJPrtU gJlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1688743503; x=1691335503; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kd4ZEhoUUDZRFGG2sT6ekywH/MvvcQOeFRqP8f3bWec=; b=LCUPvbSPE6vC4/+28+95/L35ydYCjXJp/P/C7Xzvjg3XG64L8+KiMIl+BNSTAB13+A 47bjKkjVU3V1SdXY0F6M+6Rr7sgnDfFxVIqQb8WYcINr5FbwifPGDWVpjhBbK3BwjTv+ pCQst4bG7jR0g+TZBNvAsCqH8RQe/NAwE0AgQzEyS4KxPPEgaQ+zMt0aSLA7qHc5rw3+ 5yBcl0Nv7MYvtUYqoT9AzRsfbvoe/R+6txZkVQXM7WRIUBNINVfTFA7lXftq6WbaFTQo lDEjNFDaIokC+IIpopkKEwP1E6yFBAQelppxU66zVNxHN7IRIfqRrVF9bdiBMZdiMMGW jfbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLZbEKNBr26iVwPeskPrw/NeoMRocEWv++Y1yCPHwffbu2Ux+A/t Q8l4hXIVy9Z3Dj72ZOzXs6c9CTqhAETOMe4Y+LULe+a3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlF69tj2RLuhsgWFuF+Hfa6x6mLRR+sNZQUCKpMIn1e2B2MiYzsGbygfdT0e8JFn7qTPBqfcdgrongFSuey/Se8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9591:0:b0:2b4:7380:230 with SMTP id w17-20020a2e9591000000b002b473800230mr3921787ljh.13.1688743502654; Fri, 07 Jul 2023 08:25:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <309EDCC9-2402-46B5-BDBD-B96677E470DD@apple.com> <20230707124722.GE4163@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <054B1907-817E-496D-9F83-7FBE7AB0111A@apple.com> In-Reply-To: From: Andrew Bell Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2023 11:24:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: musl@lists.openwall.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000097b35605ffe73ce7" Subject: Re: [musl] __MUSL__ macro --00000000000097b35605ffe73ce7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 11:20=E2=80=AFAM Markus Wichmann = wrote: > Am Fri, Jul 07, 2023 at 11:02:21AM -0400 schrieb Andrew Bell: > > I guess I don't understand the opposition -- is there any downside to > musl > > to having the macros defined, necessary or not? (I'm saying this as a > > minimalist, so I'm surprising myself here.) > > > > Yes, it makes people write worse code. Not making the macros available > makes people write more portable code, which is a good thing. Sometimes > people have to be made to think for a moment, and broken out of their > rut, to get them to do the right thing. > I guess I just don't think this is the job of a library -- to be the arbiter of other people's programming. I may have seen some code inside musl that I personally don't like ;) > There is also the issue of what exactly the macros mean. Between > distribution patches and backports, a version number does not > necessarily map to a feature or bug set. And musl does not want to have > any quirks, it wants to just be a POSIX implementation. So what > specialties are supposed to be kept in mind when the musl macro is > defined? I understand if it can't be done well, but I would hope that it's not a big deal to do. I do appreciate the adherence to standards and it seems perfectly fine to respond to questions/proposals with "that's not the way the standard works." But if this is easy, I just don't see the downside from the standpoint of maintaining musl. --=20 Andrew Bell andrew.bell.ia@gmail.com --00000000000097b35605ffe73ce7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 11:20=E2=80=AF= AM Markus Wichmann <nullplan@gmx.net= > wrote:
= Am Fri, Jul 07, 2023 at 11:02:21AM -0400 schrieb Andrew Bell:
> I guess I don't understand the opposition -- is there any downside= to musl
> to having the macros defined, necessary or not? (I'm saying this a= s a
> minimalist, so I'm surprising myself here.)
>

Yes, it makes people write worse code. Not making the macros available
makes people write more portable code, which is a good thing. Sometimes
people have to be made to think for a moment, and broken out of their
rut, to get them to do the right thing.

I guess I = just don't think this is the job of a library -- to be the arbiter of o= ther people's programming. I may have seen some code inside musl that I= personally don't like ;)
=C2=A0
There is also the issue of what exactly the macr= os mean. Between
distribution patches and backports, a version number does not
necessarily map to a feature or bug set. And musl does not want to have
any quirks, it wants to just be a POSIX implementation. So what
specialties are supposed to be kept in mind when the musl macro is
defined?

I understand if it can't be done well, bu= t I would hope that it's not a big deal to do. I do appreciate the adhe= rence to standards and it seems perfectly fine to respond to questions/prop= osals with "that's not the way the standard works." But if th= is is easy, I just don't see the downside from the standpoint of mainta= ining musl.

--
Andrew Bell<= br>andrew.bel= l.ia@gmail.com
--00000000000097b35605ffe73ce7--