From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/3651 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: LM Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: embedded newbies site. Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 07:50:29 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1373940214.3719.5@driftwood> Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160c6d269c72f04e19f95f6 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1373975441 5015 80.91.229.3 (16 Jul 2013 11:50:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 11:50:41 +0000 (UTC) To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-3655-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Tue Jul 16 13:50:44 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by plane.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Uz3mF-0006AQ-C5 for gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org; Tue, 16 Jul 2013 13:50:43 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 19760 invoked by uid 550); 16 Jul 2013 11:50:41 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Original-Received: (qmail 19752 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2013 11:50:41 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=85aJmEgio9WBVuh1vgc/tzfl49Vn9M1Ii63FnH6dtn0=; b=e/nKBiW9B9VYjBnlNPPQuoKRCqxSUUR/81iifZkppvsX9QMhiICAJBAf8ARKcibLdV ZuhsoQ3V5mSgQtpx7iY1agem6LguKXWpHkIhPaZMfrzqJV2pz2KDBmCmpdnJ6mCjMNbe ShnJXI/DxN+1vi1qMsrvxmEKH+n+4ux2xfOYJJ3N4SwL1+r/9fy3N81+TJwFu1toQvDR qCkfLOJb4W3nA+u0IN7o/PwFeovpuSVWnfDpUR0WKvwWVgZvMWu2MhiLwy2neNsAMQTZ 16KAytY401S+o/1kV8wkuJIFLoyJYRqMLrHUIlpQmQvIIKPi88fAG1YbZzO9ft/blDb0 yvEg== X-Received: by 10.15.44.67 with SMTP id y43mr1327348eev.20.1373975429618; Tue, 16 Jul 2013 04:50:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1373940214.3719.5@driftwood> Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:3651 Archived-At: --089e0160c6d269c72f04e19f95f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Rob Landley wrote: > I'd like an explicit a place to collect and preserve information about > this sort of thing, and a place we can send newbies to ask all the stupid > questions. The main page should teach somebody what embedded development > _is_ and how to do it, starting with how to build and install the simplest > Linux system that boots to a shell prompt (three packages: linux, musl, and > toybox). > Sounds like a great idea. Would be interested in reading articles on some of the topics mentioned. Sites like suckless.org state what they consider are better and worse software choices. Would be nice to see some actual statistics and rationale backing up what is considered better or worse design. For instance, there are some negative mentions about the PCRE library, but when I tried to track down the cons for using it, I only found dated performance comparisons showing how poorly it worked if you don't use the newer JIT implementation. What might be a positive for a system that's optimized for a particular processor might be a negative if you're interested in software that ports to multiple processors and vice versa. Musl's useful not just for embedded systems but for older machines that want to run efficient desktop environments. However, what works for a desktop environment might not work well for an embedded system and so on. Would like to see actual lists of pros and cons, less opinions and let the user decide if the software is really a bad fit with his/her needs or not. Would also love to see a forum where one could discuss pros and cons of various software and library choices, alternatives already out there and if the user wants to rewrite some of these himself or herself for specific needs, a place to discuss design issues. There is an lfs-chat list. Think it would probably be a good idea to post something about the idea of an LFS for embedded systems there and see if any of the regular LFS users would be interested in getting involved. A start might be to take the outline of possible topics Rob Landley supplied, put it up on a wiki and see if people will volunteer to fill in some of the blanks. Might also be useful to get together a list of what tasks need to be done to get something started and ask for actual volunteers for each task to help get things rolling. I do think a mailing list or forum would be useful as well. That way, one can get discussions going and brainstorm ideas about how best to program something or find information on a topic. I tend to prefer mailing lists and forums to IRC. It's easier to read through past information. I've been talking with another developer about the possibility of building (yet another) lightweight Linux distribution for older machines. I really haven't been happy with what's currently out there. The average definition of a lightweight Linux desktop for older machines is to use a lot of GTK+ programs (with a lightweight desktop like XFCE (not my definition of lightweight), LXDE or razorQT) and even interpreted programs (as long as they look like they're in console mode or like they might somehow be lighter or more useful than their compiled equivalents). They typically use the KISS principle which means (according to their take on it) I'm stuck with the one graphics editor, the one music player, etc. that the distribution creator happens to like. A Gimp or a Photoshop style program has a lot of functionality. So does an Office Suite like LibreOffice. If you're going to replace heavyweights with a program that does one thing well, you're typically going to need more than one application with each application designed to perform a specific piece of the functionality well. You need more than one type of graphics program if you're doing serious graphics editing, more than one type of music program if you're doing serious music creation, etc. A lot of the topics such as how to put together a system from scratch, what boot and init programs to go with, which userspace utilities to use, which package manager to use, which libraries are efficient would be of great interest for the project. Another concern to me is which projects are open to accepting patches and which aren't so open, making it prudent to look into more friendly alternatives. I'd also been interested in discussing when it pays to rewrite something from scratch and when it's better to reuse what's already been done. I've been picking up ideas by looking at the code embedded systems use. However, the end goal for this particular project is not an embedded system but a GUI desktop that an average end user will be comfortable working with. There's a lot of overlap, but definitely different goals with different design tradeoffs. Hope the idea to document and share many of the topics mentioned takes off. Think it would make a very nice resource for certain types of developers. Sincerely, Laura http://www.distasis.com/cpp --089e0160c6d269c72f04e19f95f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Rob Landley <ro= b@landley.net> wrote:
I'd like an explicit a place to collect and preserve information about = this sort of thing, and a place we can send newbies to ask all the stupid q= uestions. The main page should teach somebody what embedded development _is= _ and how to do it, starting with how to build and install the simplest Lin= ux system that boots to a shell prompt (three packages: linux, musl, and to= ybox).

Sounds like a great idea.=A0 Would be interested in r= eading articles on some of the topics mentioned.=A0 Sites like suckless.org state what they consider are better an= d worse software choices.=A0 Would be nice to see some actual statistics an= d rationale backing up what is considered better or worse design.=A0 For in= stance, there are some negative mentions about the PCRE library, but when I= tried to track down the cons for using it, I only found dated performance = comparisons showing how poorly it worked if you don't use the newer JIT= implementation.=A0 What might be a positive for a system that's optimi= zed for a particular processor might be a negative if you're interested= in software that ports to multiple processors and vice versa.=A0 Musl'= s useful not just for embedded systems but for older machines that want to = run efficient desktop environments.=A0 However, what works for a desktop en= vironment might not work well for an embedded system and so on.=A0 Would li= ke to see actual lists of pros and cons, less opinions and let the user dec= ide if the software is really a bad fit with his/her needs or not.

Would also love to see a forum where one could discuss pros and cons of= various software and library choices, alternatives already out there and i= f the user wants to rewrite some of these himself or herself for specific n= eeds, a place to discuss design issues.

There is an lfs-chat list.=A0 Think it would probably be a good idea to= post something about the idea of an LFS for embedded systems there and see= if any of the regular LFS users would be interested in getting involved.= =A0 A start might be to take the outline of possible topics Rob Landley sup= plied, put it up on a wiki and see if people will volunteer to fill in some= of the blanks.=A0 Might also be useful to get together a list of what task= s need to be done to get something started and ask for actual volunteers fo= r each task to help get things rolling.=A0 I do think a mailing list or for= um would be useful as well.=A0 That way, one can get discussions going and = brainstorm ideas about how best to program something or find information on= a topic.=A0 I tend to prefer mailing lists and forums to IRC.=A0 It's = easier to read through past information.

I've been talking with another developer about the possibility of b= uilding (yet another) lightweight Linux distribution for older machines.=A0= I really haven't been happy with what's currently out there.=A0 Th= e average definition of a lightweight Linux desktop for older machines is t= o use a lot of GTK+ programs (with a lightweight desktop like XFCE (not my = definition of lightweight), LXDE or razorQT) and even interpreted programs = (as long as they look like they're in console mode or like they might s= omehow be lighter or more useful than their compiled equivalents).=A0 They = typically use the KISS principle which means (according to their take on it= ) I'm stuck with the one graphics editor, the one music player, etc. th= at the distribution creator happens to like.=A0 A Gimp or a Photoshop style= program has a lot of functionality.=A0 So does an Office Suite like LibreO= ffice.=A0 If you're going to replace heavyweights with a program that d= oes one thing well, you're typically going to need more than one applic= ation with each application designed to perform a specific piece of the fun= ctionality well.=A0 You need more than one type of graphics program if you&= #39;re doing serious graphics editing, more than one type of music program = if you're doing serious music creation, etc.=A0 A lot of the topics suc= h as how to put together a system from scratch, what boot and init programs= to go with, which userspace utilities to use, which package manager to use= , which libraries are efficient would be of great interest for the project.= =A0 Another concern to me is which projects are open to accepting patches a= nd which aren't so open, making it prudent to look into more friendly a= lternatives.=A0 I'd also been interested in discussing when it pays to = rewrite something from scratch and when it's better to reuse what's= already been done.=A0 I've been picking up ideas by looking at the cod= e embedded systems use.=A0 However, the end goal for this particular projec= t is not an embedded system but a GUI desktop that an average end user will= be comfortable working with.=A0 There's a lot of overlap, but definite= ly different goals with different design tradeoffs.

Hope the idea to document and share many of the topics mentioned takes = off.=A0 Think it would make a very nice resource for certain types of devel= opers.

Sincerely,
Laura
http://www.distasis.com/cpp

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