From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_MED,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2,USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 22657 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2022 20:14:02 -0000 Received: from second.openwall.net (193.110.157.125) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Sep 2022 20:14:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 27775 invoked by uid 550); 26 Sep 2022 20:13:58 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-ID: Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com Received: (qmail 27742 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2022 20:13:58 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=sKizfD+IllGpRopz39NrDPpWJLMXtFuGN/+T3U+Kgi0=; b=A2O1c3d1ur/o0A/DANMdeVMDEHUwj7xaT6YCZS94duFjvzN9cImow9FUxqzoNpcGEI vMUwhEikKB3+aYMFICcY96eNJpcAAYZGT+/Rgmi1pfnfk3htZlvL4zkE1U9NYx7qNFT2 JCK4ysUKDmAK2bbRiPeEoFyrrlFg8u42odIOD50Ar28VtRKXtYOPyGSzFIsEo0QUgho6 1ryQ8H4aCcT+pzlbNIgAPaxhPOByNRY/CJrSbgqgGjq/WEZtMZj+kDhnp+tC77PFiZxT pT1fMbTkYjIfV8uK284Y32BJ49XC/vpF885qaY3JuxCE8nNw9XcaLyD860wfd8HLPNBy ikMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=sKizfD+IllGpRopz39NrDPpWJLMXtFuGN/+T3U+Kgi0=; b=4kL3Z97EX/+9MUQct9ndNlJZAbjmuAJILjiGfOn8A3Zw2L4dGzbvMSsDnGl0TlH/lR EeN36nQjk3Ca3DmMni/01AY2RzmEjFYnZm/oDpXszvMOHGPLZOsxWySa78BbTY8iq+Gt slIVnH93sS1frkmCjLxWEG59vod3aChrTdTRvf24mHJK6VOlM0wlfRAbZrPLkQGChh4T 4/J/7bnLqVPHu96rhTEDqPk7NtkJ1TQsj1naEt2DPVrC1/FU3LQABaJ/7JVHlTLLjdHU M+R6nKe1b5alhZt/Z1eNx7csVtIMneBTdI2JY6GHtu6dEHHxlCutNYnOjk8KGUBaWnaO IX9A== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1VheEHsJ9J+qTU27hXZiJRJRR6PF80Hp2On1UDyvzyPFpFOFSk sSkpruElKVqk5GyGYmSBJ69S6IROmYKQFsGkHNE6Ag== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7sV02OkYdiNoMaozC91r+qs5VrrRzQ5sgGmR3J6NVO+mnzx8h/TvuxILMb6+88Vkd+UvKhiCe2lia9OqorQnE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:489:b0:49f:4da0:a023 with SMTP id v9-20020a056512048900b0049f4da0a023mr10306590lfq.599.1664223226334; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:13:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220923162518.56284329@inria.fr> <20220923174054.73258a83@inria.fr> <20220924093106.41e53819@inria.fr> In-Reply-To: <20220924093106.41e53819@inria.fr> From: enh Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:13:35 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?SuKCkeKCmeKCmyBHdXN0ZWR0?= Cc: musl@lists.openwall.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003c473e05e99a2a77" Subject: Re: [musl] C23 implications for C libraries --0000000000003c473e05e99a2a77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 12:31 AM J=E2=82=91=E2=82=99=E2=82=9B Gustedt wrote: > enh, > > on Fri, 23 Sep 2022 16:52:53 -0700 you (enh ) wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 8:40 AM J=E2=82=91=E2=82=99=E2=82=9B Gustedt > > wrote: > > > > > enh, > > > > > > on Fri, 23 Sep 2022 08:28:52 -0700 you (enh ) wrote: > > > > > > > since you asked for comments, it would have been even better to > > > > have direct links to the relevant documents (such as > > > > https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n2829.htm for the > > > > assert() changes), > > > > > > yes, the idea is to add such a link when I manage to discuss the > > > particular feature more in detail > > > > > > > that... > > wow, that's pushy > apologies if it came across that way, but it was actually meant in the opposite sense... > > > my hope is also still that we may have a diff-version of the C > > > standard at some point in the nearer future, but it seems that the > > > editors have problems with the tooling for that > > > > > > > ...and that sound even better, yes --- but i always worry about "the > > perfect is the enemy of the good". a 20% solution today is worth more > > to me than a 100% solution a year from now :-) > > Much as musl, the C standard is a volunteer project. Instead of > reclaiming things you should ask yourself how can you or your company > help. > > As all volunteer work, this is best effort. WG14 would have a much > better stand if more of the industry would inject real work force into > the committee. Currently there seem only be two of the bigger players > that have people there that substantially work on the C standard > during their office hours. The others are mostly academics like myself > and people working in their free time. > ...specifically: given that we're _all_ just doing this in "spare" time because new c language/library features aren't a priority for anyone i know[1], i think it's _especially_ important to avoid the perfect being the enemy of the good ... a wiki somewhere that we can all edit now, say, is better than a great doc that isn't ready _because_ we can all help. (i'd have added the Nxxxx links for the ones i looked up as i was reading your summary, for example.) (since i see he's on this thread, credit to florian weimer's co-ordination list --- that stands out as probably the most useful thing we have in the implementor community right now.) ____ 1. unlike things that make a significant difference to safety/correctness, such as "move to rust". Thanks > J=E2=82=91=E2=82=99=E2=82=9B > > -- > :: INRIA Nancy Grand Est ::: Camus ::::::: ICube/ICPS ::: > :: :::::::::::::::::::::: gsm France : +33 651400183 > <+33%206%2051%2040%2001%2083> :: > :: ::::::::::::::: gsm international : +49 15737185122 > <+49%201573%207185122> :: > :: http://icube-icps.unistra.fr/index.php/Jens_Gustedt :: > --0000000000003c473e05e99a2a77 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 12:31 AM J=E2= =82=91=E2=82=99=E2=82=9B Gustedt <jens.gustedt@inria.fr> wrote:
enh,

on Fri, 23 Sep 2022 16:52:53 -0700 you (enh <enh@google.com>) wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 8:40 AM J=E2=82=91=E2=82=99=E2=82=9B Gustedt &= lt;jens.gustedt@= inria.fr>
> wrote:
>
> > enh,
> >
> > on Fri, 23 Sep 2022 08:28:52 -0700 you (enh <enh@google.com>) wrote:
> >=C2=A0
> > > since you asked for comments, it would have been even better= to
> > > have direct links to the relevant documents (such as
> > > https://www.open-std.org/jt= c1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n2829.htm for the
> > > assert() changes),=C2=A0
> >
> > yes, the idea is to add such a link when I manage to discuss the<= br> > > particular feature more in detail
> >=C2=A0
>
> that...

wow, that's pushy

apologies if it c= ame across that way, but it was actually meant in the opposite sense...
=C2=A0
> > my hope is also still that we may have a diff-version of the C > > standard at some point in the nearer future, but it seems that th= e
> > editors have problems with the tooling for that
> >=C2=A0
>
> ...and that sound even better, yes --- but i always worry about "= the
> perfect is the enemy of the good". a 20% solution today is worth = more
> to me than a 100% solution a year from now :-)

Much as musl, the C standard is a volunteer project. Instead of
reclaiming things you should ask yourself how can you or your company
help.

As all volunteer work, this is best effort. WG14 would have a much
better stand if more of the industry would inject real work force into
the committee. Currently there seem only be two of the bigger players
that have people there that substantially work on the C standard
during their office hours. The others are mostly academics like myself
and people working in their free time.

= ...specifically: given that we're _all_ just doing this in "spare&= quot; time because new c language/library features aren't a priority fo= r anyone i know[1], i think it's _especially_ important to avoid the pe= rfect being the enemy of the good ... a wiki somewhere that we can all edit= now, say, is better than a great doc that isn't ready _because_ we can= all help. (i'd have added the Nxxxx links for the ones i looked up as = i was reading your summary, for example.)

(since i= see he's on this thread, credit to florian weimer's co-ordination = list --- that stands out as probably the most useful thing we have in the i= mplementor community right now.)

____
1.= unlike things that make a significant difference to safety/correctness, su= ch as "move to rust".


Thanks
J=E2=82=91=E2=82=99=E2=82=9B

--
:: INRIA Nancy Grand Est ::: Camus ::::::: ICube/ICPS :::
:: :::::::::::::::::::::: gsm France : +33 651400183=C2=A0 = =C2=A0::
:: ::::::::::::::: gsm international : +49 15737185122 ::
:: http://icube-icps.unistra.fr/index.php/Jens_Gu= stedt ::
--0000000000003c473e05e99a2a77--