From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/2365 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Justin Cormack Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: Summary of 1.0 marketing plan/scheme/nefarious plot from IRC. Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 21:15:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1354222203.2190.17@driftwood> Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3036366bdeb48b04cfa8c8a3 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1354223751 29663 80.91.229.3 (29 Nov 2012 21:15:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 21:15:51 +0000 (UTC) To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-2366-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Thu Nov 29 22:16:03 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by plane.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TeBSk-0000h7-CR for gllmg-musl@plane.gmane.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 22:16:02 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 5717 invoked by uid 550); 29 Nov 2012 21:15:50 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Original-Received: (qmail 5709 invoked from network); 29 Nov 2012 21:15:50 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=specialbusservice.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=dAZxkWyscH0ny60VRRj7jTTKJlsxIBNr7C3WuYUOGd4=; b=XOqOzgDCkvGfIWnqLRCFRlWMX70cnHEg5VGSE26Hwge1veNhke2WmBT4IkHcnl4hI/ 7t3WxKrEyn8flgSPlAJy7AkgkTRD6ZIahYKJRuTl4Ffdexj5OtdIPMWWKbdMCXKE+zS3 xU6RHQefS99yE+EgyhePL2KhwUKQqkMjG6e30= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=dAZxkWyscH0ny60VRRj7jTTKJlsxIBNr7C3WuYUOGd4=; b=jdL3FKHYVcehgfaSzcvo1ZTUbNwsLglVvcfE57UnOzJVZy736OOeJimiKTLj0/B3P8 /vmTT70Wrqma/Q+OzeIyqZhuIQ/+XuTfp1nNOjk1r0WhJC2V7hnsRyIhfdRFpP5e1ZSE 8puIcOlYir+HpD9WkqJbnIadnuXI4zYdHw3JhTbgOms+IyWtpT8YiK9b6SmSYDD/dEBG vfeYwJDTRErCXNDoKCnwfvftXpq3FoDN+q69LP0/5XLexfzL9IzsX8e6WXs+UXtM1MoF 4vdR+lKw5eajROCO9mIiljncyHc1LbtG2GwTSryLAL1WJDV3YdejvN1wq58esVRjIdiE yxnw== In-Reply-To: <1354222203.2190.17@driftwood> X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkTSSGyqDnH2jYmglX0AVn78yAfAi/Zkfy36WpDzEjYE7RrJfr4tlzrRdxXUZJFK+vUyk00 Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:2365 Archived-At: --20cf3036366bdeb48b04cfa8c8a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 29 Nov 2012 20:50, "Rob Landley" wrote: > > Notes from the discussion we had on IRC, plus some further random thoughts on telling the world about musl: > > - wait until 1.0 so it's most likely to works for them. > - People who take a look and wander off again are less likely to take another look, > so try to make a spash when you're _ready_, not before. > - counter this with "rule of 7", people filter out noise and won't remember they've > even heard of you until they've seen it in ~7 different places. So once you _ARE_ > ready, get the word out everywhere. (Politely.) > > - prepare the website to covert casual browsers into long-term users. > - press release extoling virtues > - simple > - realtime: less code is more deterministic > - security: less code is easier to audit > - students/teachers: learn how a posix system works > - link to the online git browser for the "show me the code" guys. > - already tested against 8 gazillion packages > - standards compliant > - BSD license: static linking ok, android deployment ok > - works side by side with existing libraries, or static linked > - easy deployment on android without bionic limitations > - technical advantages > - support static and dynamic linking and do _both_ well > - thread implementation is _not_crazy_, and no legacy baggage. > > - obvious "start here" from main page. > - Why it's cool (collate) > - how to use it (collate) > - HOWTO walkthrough > > - binaries they can try. > - cross compiler, build hello world > - livecd of full-ish x86 distro. > - with working x11 and simple gui (xfce? fvwm?) > - chroot for each target with native development tools > - system images for qemu maybe? > - launch x11 vnc server and display in tightvnc window? > - jslinux live image on website > > - distro conversions > - leverage existing repositories, don't fall into the buildroot trap > - approach gentoo guys about a musl build > - #gentoo-embedded on freenode > - maybe funtoo would be easier (Daniel Robbins' new project, #funtoo on freenode) > - approach debian guys about musl debootstrap > - arch linux, slackware, puppy, crunchbang, tinycore... > - http://distrowatch.com/popularity > - approach cyanogenmod guys about doing a musl-based cyanogenmod. > - way into man's heart is through the stomach and up under the ribcage, > one way into android is cyanogenmod. > > - push "musl support" patches to other projects upstream all at once > - sabotage collected a bunch? > - people who develop on 3 other project seeing musl on all 3 lists > makes dev community look big and active. > > - Write linux from scratch "musl hint", contribute it to LFS, then link > to it on LFS website from musl website. > > - is userbase of glibc, uClibc, klibc, or dietlibc better served by musl? > - contribute musl option to buildroot? > - contribute musl option to crosstool-ng? > - Ask mentor graphics (formly code sourcery) to do a musl toolchain? > - LOTS of proprietary embedded devs use this one, it's "professional". > - windriver.com is now a wholly owned subsidiary of intel > - klibc guys are initramfs@vger or embedded@vger (see lists) > - ask clibc author Peter Anvin if musl serves his needs? > > - mailing lists you can post a "here's how musl can help _you_" on: > It's not spam if you tailor a post to each list, especially if there's patches > attached in the case of dash or util-linux... > - each architecture list for arches you support (linux-arm, linux-ppc, etc). > "musl is pleased to announce support for the $BLAH architecture, here are > a cross compiler, chroot with native compiler, and a system image to play with." > - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/lists.php > - http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/Net_Resources#Mailing_lists > - https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev > - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#linux-x86_64 > - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#dash > - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#initramfs > - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#linux-embedded > - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#util-linux > - and maybe one "OS support" message to linux-kernel. > > - websites that might review musl if we ask nicely: > - linux > - lwn.net (submit via lwn@lwn.net) > - h-online (ping @codepope on twitter) > - Linux Journal > - Linux Today (they'll just link elsewhere) > - android > - not personally familiar, google for "android news" finds several. > - works well with android kernel, installs side-by-side with bionic, > static links well, doesn't introduce any new licensing issues, > provides full posix environment, active and responsive dev community. > - paper magazines > - long shot, but if you send a press release to pc magazine and computerworld > and such explaining how musl might help android bridge the gap between phones > and the desktop they might write a "will android bridge the gap between phones > and the desktop" article mentioning musl. :) > - tech bloggers > - cringely.com > - Consumer Electronic Linux Forum > - Tim Bird and elinux.org > > - do a musl distro that runs well on raspberry pi, tell http://www.raspberrypi.org/ > > - ask people on mailing list and irc to blog/tweet about the 1.0 release when it > happens. > > - write a syllabus for theoretical "teaching musl" one semester comp-sci cour That's a great list. Also conferences. FOSDEM is in Feb and is a good place talks still open. Will work on what I can... Justin --20cf3036366bdeb48b04cfa8c8a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 29 Nov 2012 20:50, "Rob Landley" <rob@landley.net> wrote:
>
> Notes from the discussion we had on IRC, plus some further random thou= ghts on telling the world about musl:
>
> - wait until 1.0 so it's most likely to works for them.
> =C2=A0 - People who take a look and wander off again are less likely t= o take another look,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 so try to make a spash when you're _ready_, not befo= re.
> =C2=A0 - counter this with "rule of 7", people filter out no= ise and won't remember they've
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 even heard of you until they've seen it in ~7 differ= ent places. So once you _ARE_
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ready, get the word out everywhere. (Politely.)
>
> - prepare the website to covert casual browsers into long-term users.<= br> > =C2=A0 - press release extoling virtues
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - simple
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - realtime: less code is more deterministic
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - security: less code is easier to audit
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - students/teachers: learn how a posix system wor= ks
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - link to the online git browser for the "show me t= he code" guys.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - already tested against 8 gazillion packages
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - standards compliant
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - BSD license: static linking ok, android deployment ok<= br> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - works side by side with existing libraries, or static = linked
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - easy deployment on android without bionic limit= ations
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - technical advantages
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - support static and dynamic linking and do _both= _ well
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - thread implementation is _not_crazy_, and no le= gacy baggage.
>
> =C2=A0 - obvious "start here" from main page.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Why it's cool (collate)
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - how to use it (collate)
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - HOWTO walkthrough
>
> =C2=A0 - binaries they can try.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - cross compiler, build hello world
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - livecd of full-ish x86 distro.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - with working x11 and simple gui (xfce? fvwm?) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - chroot for each target with native development tools > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - system images for qemu maybe?
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - launch x11 vnc server and display in tightvnc w= indow?
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - jslinux live image on website
>
> - distro conversions
> =C2=A0 - leverage existing repositories, don't fall into the build= root trap
> =C2=A0 - approach gentoo guys about a musl build
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - #gentoo-embedded on freenode
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - maybe funtoo would be easier (Daniel Robbins' new = project, #funtoo on freenode)
> =C2=A0 - approach debian guys about musl debootstrap
> =C2=A0 - arch linux, slackware, puppy, crunchbang, tinycore...
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - http://d= istrowatch.com/popularity
> =C2=A0 - approach cyanogenmod guys about doing a musl-based cyanogenmo= d.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - way into man's heart is through the stomach and up= under the ribcage,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 one way into android is cyanogenmod.
>
> - push "musl support" patches to other projects upstream all= at once
> =C2=A0 - sabotage collected a bunch?
> =C2=A0 - people who develop on 3 other project seeing musl on all 3 li= sts
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes dev community look big and active.
>
> - Write linux from scratch "musl hint", contribute it to LFS= , then link
> =C2=A0 to it on LFS website from musl website.
>
> - is userbase of glibc, uClibc, klibc, or dietlibc better served by mu= sl?
> =C2=A0 - contribute musl option to buildroot?
> =C2=A0 - contribute musl option to crosstool-ng?
> =C2=A0 - Ask mentor graphics (formly code sourcery) to do a musl toolc= hain?
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - LOTS of proprietary embedded devs use this one, it'= ;s "professional".
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - windriver.com is = now a wholly owned subsidiary of intel
> =C2=A0 - klibc guys are initramfs@vger or embedded@vger (see lists) > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - ask clibc author Peter Anvin if musl serves his needs?=
>
> - mailing lists you can post a "here's how musl can help _you= _" on:
> =C2=A0 It's not spam if you tailor a post to each list, especially= if there's patches
> =C2=A0 attached in the case of dash or util-linux...
> =C2=A0 - each architecture list for arches you support (linux-arm, lin= ux-ppc, etc).
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "musl is pleased to announce support for the $BLAH = architecture, here are
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a cross compiler, chroot with native compiler, and= a system image to play with."
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/mailinglists/lists.php
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/Net_Resources#Mailing_lists=
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#linux-x86_64
> =C2=A0 - http:= //vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#dash
> =C2=A0 - = http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#initramfs
> =C2=A0 - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#linux-embedded
> =C2=A0 - http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#util-linux
> =C2=A0 - and maybe one "OS support" message to linux-kernel.=
>
> - websites that might review musl if we ask nicely:
> =C2=A0 - linux
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - lwn.net (submit via lwn@lwn.net)
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - h-online (ping @codepope on twitter)
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Linux Journal
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Linux Today (they'll just link elsewhere)
> =C2=A0 - android
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - not personally familiar, google for "android news= " finds several.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - works well with android kernel, installs side-by-side = with bionic,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 static links well, doesn't introduce any new = licensing issues,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 provides full posix environment, active and respo= nsive dev community.
> =C2=A0 - paper magazines
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - long shot, but if you send a press release to pc magaz= ine and computerworld
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and such explaining how musl might help android b= ridge the gap between phones
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and the desktop they might write a "will and= roid bridge the gap between phones
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and the desktop" article mentioning musl. :)=
> =C2=A0 - tech bloggers
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - cringely.com
> =C2=A0 - Consumer Electronic Linux Forum
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Tim Bird and elinux.org<= /a>
>
> - do a musl distro that runs well on raspberry pi, tell http://www.raspberrypi.org/
>
> - ask people on mailing list and irc to blog/tweet about the 1.0 relea= se when it
> =C2=A0 happens.
>
> - write a syllabus for theoretical "teaching musl" one semes= ter comp-sci cour

That's a great list.

Also conferences. FOSDEM is in Feb and is a good place talks= still open.

Will work on what I can...

Justin

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