From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/9740 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Lane Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: musl licensing Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:35:23 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20160317081748.GF13856@example.net> <20160317160131.GE21636@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20160318042158.GN21636@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20160318191209.GQ21636@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20160319043547.GS21636@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <20160323023221.GJ21636@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134b422e8bf64052ebd4436 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1458765342 26654 80.91.229.3 (23 Mar 2016 20:35:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 20:35:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: musl@lists.openwall.com To: Rich Felker Original-X-From: musl-return-9753-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Wed Mar 23 21:35:42 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by plane.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aipVD-00013I-MO for gllmg-musl@m.gmane.org; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:35:39 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 16320 invoked by uid 550); 23 Mar 2016 20:35:36 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-ID: Original-Received: (qmail 16302 invoked from network); 23 Mar 2016 20:35:35 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=S0Dd3Bfcn9EksbdXvXT6OvOJIv8h7f26aGf3cdUc5xM=; b=s8IVkq9d7xhaxWFR61EK5Ww/cHJuZjA9vZluN3gdfZy0APYGAX9EPqP0vPFzBanTBz W5yIiuhLIbF3o7Qg5XHlsxNqTZDuo//faqUfVhTFPKiyyS2UYZPUD3VzMfRhxm5KgLqI j4fK/N87ZZ2xh5MZNQz2eaRJhV45dTWRhtNB2Q1YR3nAdYtWAJPpx/Uvqh1SYAbWcIV+ 5+kA24uAZYJDTIETEiv2WA5/kXwX4kXd1lxuHOF2a9WaXDkYhp8yrpt10mAhEkC3EzTh VfDL9rKA1S2gZtokYXCEbAaNHLWTCWOiVdCj/IO1MqJ3nY9q2YfNPTFCCuPvxdjneNju x0nw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=S0Dd3Bfcn9EksbdXvXT6OvOJIv8h7f26aGf3cdUc5xM=; b=XT2cTEdcVaYBDp1nYWNTA3dL6UiAJmMx8xCqQcCXPwRbeDqX5IMDXpBTEPotAPh1lf NNdxmB6CEsFDJcmCtgyHiYYanj+u+7QHIcvuizyKtmP71I5/mTATXLaw1pgZiP3gpxyu E2VqHtxDPcoBcr9hjkOYfui1aMSUKt35ZUf6wZu3ldRtZ+79u1YP9syxhgIl17/Gi8fu ZntdFb6KERgpXtY6sxF/nFJ9aAML4NHKfQPaRJtsSAyXZDsoA63dhIWCCdHagZ4gWcTt 9fSwI5FikA7XkDedb1RBNeGeSw0la0Iwyn4s33hXFpyDworbrKsXbtj7Ts6Q5SnQB/A/ 0kHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJLXBb87WRXC9zohZu+IZM09DvXDR5X3kscmNRUrKXfP6Xt3GWzQABUmv4O9q5jLziiHTfbYLPhijEub1A== X-Received: by 10.51.17.4 with SMTP id ga4mr5688324igd.88.1458765323352; Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:35:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160323023221.GJ21636@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:9740 Archived-At: --001a1134b422e8bf64052ebd4436 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Rich Felker wrote: > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 03:46:18PM -0700, Christopher Lane wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 9:35 PM, Rich Felker wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 07:47:21PM +0000, George Kulakowski wrote: > > > > I wanted to mention another small thing, which is simply to update > the > > > > names of some files specifically mentioned in COPYRIGHT. I've > attached a > > > > diff. > > > > > > Thanks. Applied. > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > Some comments on the proposed COPYRIGHT text... > > > > """ > > The implementation of blowfish crypt (src/misc/crypt_blowfish.c) was > > originally written by Solar Designer and placed into the public > > domain. The code also comes with a fallback permissive license for use > > in jurisdictions that may not recognize the public domain. > > """ > > > > """ > > The x86_64 port was written by Nicholas J. Kain. Several files (crt) > > were released into the public domain; others are licensed under the > > standard MIT license terms at the top of this file. See individual > > files for their copyright status. > > """ > > > > Those paragraphs still reference public domain. We can't use the things > > mentioned there. WRT the blowfish impl, there are other implementations > we > > can pull if we want / need that - though I'm not sure we even do want > > that. > > Did they miss the part about the fallback permissive license? I'm > pretty sure Solar's implementation of bcrypt (albeit the original, not > the one he modified for musl) is used in plenty of other places with > no problem. Complaining about copyright status on this is like > complaining about fdlibm. If it's really a problem I suspect he would > be willing to clarify its status for you. > I forwarded the comments without delving into this like I should have. I doubt our lawyers _like_ the copyright status of Solar's implementation of bcrypt, but it's not a problem to be solved here. And like you said, it's used in many other places already -- so many, in fact, the status is probably impossible to clear up at this point. It's also a single file, so let's not dwell on this any further. Aside: the path has apparently changed at some point from src/misc to src/crypt. > > > The x86_64 crt files can be cleanroom'ed here (and we'd release > > those BSD0 when we're done). > > I don't understand why they're making a meal of this again. This is > covered under the code I already said I would contact the contributors > for clarification on, which I'm happy to do once I get feedback that > the changes will meet your needs. Is the problem just that I forgot to > remove this text and replace it with a statement that the port was > contributed by Nicholas J. Kain under the project's license terms? Ah, I see the misunderstanding. It was just an oversight. OK, no worries. > I > can certainly do that assuming I get the clarification we discussed. > > In any case the only original crt files left from this contribution > are crti/crtn which are literally _single instruction_ functions. The > idea that they could be subject to copyright (even if some of the > other things we claimed were PD were more iffy) is utterly absurd. > (All crt1.s were removed a while back and replaced by the unified C > version; the new crt_arch.h files they used are mostly original works > by me.) > Now that you've mentioned this, I'm actually looking through git blame trying to find a file that might fall under this paragraph and I can't. crt/x86_64/* appears to be wholly contributed by you. arch/x86_64/crt_arch.h, like you said, was as well. At this point, I don't know what files the phrase "Several files (crt) were released into the public domain;" would even refer to. Though I suppose it doesn't matter since you're replacing the claim anyway. > > > The new text is almost OK. The biggest problem is, you shouldn't comment > > or speculate on the copyrightability of work inside the license file. > > Doing so could unintentionally alter or restrict the scope of the license > > you're attempting to apply. Comments should go in the readme file or > > another separate file. In the words of one of the lawyers here, "the > > license file should say X is MIT, Y is BSD, Z is BSD-2, goodbye." > > This really seems like the most natural place for this content so that > interested readers have access to it. I'm really trying to work with > you guys here, and it's frustrating when your lawyers come back with > complaints about statements of opinion/belief that are clearly > disjoint from license terms and that explicity state that they are not > to be interpreted as affecting the license. Other well-known licenses > (especially the GPL and LGPL) contain statements of belief and similar > that are not legally binding, even statements of legal theories like > "You are not required to accept this License..." > > If this is still bothering them, would it make them happy to put some > "end of legal text" marking above that paragraph? > I sent them a query this morning; still waiting on a reply. I think this is the only issue left. > > Rich --001a1134b422e8bf64052ebd4436 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, Mar 22, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org> wro= te:
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 03:46:18PM -0700, Chr= istopher Lane wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 9:35 PM, Rich Felker <dalias@libc.org> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 07:47:21PM +0000, George Kulakowski wrote= :
> > > I wanted to mention another small thing, which is simply to = update the
> > > names of some files specifically mentioned in COPYRIGHT. I&#= 39;ve attached a
> > > diff.
> >
> > Thanks. Applied.
> >
> > Rich
> >
>
> Some comments on the proposed COPYRIGHT text...
>
> """
> The implementation of blowfish crypt (src/misc/crypt_blowfish.c) was > originally written by Solar Designer and placed into the public
> domain. The code also comes with a fallback permissive license for use=
> in jurisdictions that may not recognize the public domain.
> """
>
> """
> The x86_64 port was written by Nicholas J. Kain. Several files (crt) > were released into the public domain; others are licensed under the > standard MIT license terms at the top of this file. See individual
> files for their copyright status.
> """
>
> Those paragraphs still reference public domain.=C2=A0 We can't use= the things
> mentioned there.=C2=A0 WRT the blowfish impl, there are other implemen= tations we
> can pull if we want / need that - though I'm not sure we even do w= ant
> that.

Did they miss the part about the fallback permissive license? I'= m
pretty sure Solar's implementation of bcrypt (albeit the original, not<= br> the one he modified for musl) is used in plenty of other places with
no problem. Complaining about copyright status on this is like
complaining about fdlibm. If it's really a problem I suspect he would be willing to clarify its status for you.

I forwarded the comments without delving into this like I should have.= =C2=A0 I doubt our lawyers _like_ the copyright status of Solar's imple= mentation of bcrypt, but it's not a problem to be solved here.=C2=A0 An= d like you said, it's used in many other places already -- so many, in = fact, the status is probably impossible to clear up at this point.=C2=A0 It= 's also a single file, so let's not dwell on this any further.

Aside: the path has apparently changed at some point f= rom src/misc to src/crypt.
=C2=A0

> The x86_64 crt files can be cleanroom'ed here (and we'd releas= e
> those BSD0 when we're done).

I don't understand why they're making a meal of this again. = This is
covered under the code I already said I would contact the contributors
for clarification on, which I'm happy to do once I get feedback that the changes will meet your needs. Is the problem just that I forgot to
remove this text and replace it with a statement that the port was
contributed by Nicholas J. Kain under the project's license terms?

Ah, I see the misunderstanding.=C2=A0 It was ju= st an oversight.=C2=A0 OK, no worries.
=C2=A0
I
can certainly do that assuming I get the clarification we discussed.

In any case the only original crt files left from this contribution
are crti/crtn which are literally _single instruction_ functions. The
idea that they could be subject to copyright (even if some of the
other things we claimed were PD were more iffy) is utterly absurd.
(All crt1.s were removed a while back and replaced by the unified C
version; the new crt_arch.h files they used are mostly original works
by me.)

Now that you've mentioned t= his, I'm actually looking through git blame trying to find a file that = might fall under this paragraph and I can't. =C2=A0crt/x86_64/* appears= to be wholly contributed by you. =C2=A0arch/x86_64/crt_arch.h, like you sa= id, was as well.=C2=A0 At this point, I don't know what files the phras= e "Several files (crt) were released into the public domain;" wou= ld even refer to.=C2=A0 Though I suppose it doesn't matter since you= 9;re replacing the claim anyway.
=C2=A0

> The new text is almost OK.=C2=A0 The biggest problem is, you shouldn&#= 39;t comment
> or speculate on the copyrightability of work inside the license file.<= br> > Doing so could unintentionally alter or restrict the scope of the lice= nse
> you're attempting to apply.=C2=A0 Comments should go in the readme= file or
> another separate file.=C2=A0 In the words of one of the lawyers here, = "the
> license file should say X is MIT, Y is BSD, Z is BSD-2, goodbye."=

This really seems like the most natural place for this content so th= at
interested readers have access to it. I'm really trying to work with you guys here, and it's frustrating when your lawyers come back with complaints about statements of opinion/belief that are clearly
disjoint from license terms and that explicity state that they are not
to be interpreted as affecting the license. Other well-known licenses
(especially the GPL and LGPL) contain statements of belief and similar
that are not legally binding, even statements of legal theories like
"You are not required to accept this License..."

If this is still bothering them, would it make them happy to put some
"end of legal text" marking above that paragraph?

I sent them a query this morning; still waiting on a r= eply.=C2=A0 I think this is the only issue left.
=C2=A0

Rich=C2=A0
--001a1134b422e8bf64052ebd4436--