From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.lib.musl.general/14410 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "A. Wilcox" Newsgroups: gmane.linux.lib.musl.general Subject: Re: Removing glibc from the musl .2 ABI Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:10:19 -0500 Organization: =?UTF-8?Q?Ad=c3=a9lie_Linux?= Message-ID: References: <20190717033735.GJ1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <2d36174f-ae85-bcd2-1c71-10f50513b1a6@adelielinux.org> <20190717151107.GL1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Reply-To: musl@lists.openwall.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HMng8kj2DSfZHwHTG2B5dkkCy7HueuSkP" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="227985"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux ppc64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 To: musl@lists.openwall.com Original-X-From: musl-return-14426-gllmg-musl=m.gmane.org@lists.openwall.com Wed Jul 17 20:10:42 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: gllmg-musl@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mother.openwall.net ([195.42.179.200]) by blaine.gmane.org with smtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hnoO1-000xCt-Kw for gllmg-musl@m.gmane.org; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:10:41 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 16366 invoked by uid 550); 17 Jul 2019 18:10:38 -0000 Mailing-List: contact musl-help@lists.openwall.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-ID: Original-Received: (qmail 16346 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2019 18:10:37 -0000 Openpgp: preference=signencrypt In-Reply-To: <20190717151107.GL1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.linux.lib.musl.general:14410 Archived-At: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --HMng8kj2DSfZHwHTG2B5dkkCy7HueuSkP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BXY0jJqXdyMYiSIDtdrUYY6TV8c8p3yEm"; protected-headers="v1" From: "A. Wilcox" To: musl@lists.openwall.com Message-ID: Subject: Re: [musl] Removing glibc from the musl .2 ABI References: <20190717033735.GJ1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> <2d36174f-ae85-bcd2-1c71-10f50513b1a6@adelielinux.org> <20190717151107.GL1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> In-Reply-To: <20190717151107.GL1506@brightrain.aerifal.cx> --BXY0jJqXdyMYiSIDtdrUYY6TV8c8p3yEm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07/17/19 10:11, Rich Felker wrote: > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 08:13:44AM -0500, A. Wilcox wrote: >> On 07/16/19 22:37, Rich Felker wrote: >>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 06:58:38PM -0500, A. Wilcox wrote: >>>> (Full disclosure: I am the principal author of gcompat.) >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Now that gcompat has matured, I was wondering if perhaps musl should= >>>> consider dropping the glibc ABI guarantees when the "2 ABI" lands. >>>> >>>> This would make the LFS64 symbol mess completely moot. >>> >>> This is separate from the .2 ABI topic, but what would you think abou= t >>> removing glibc ABI-compat from the current .1 ABI and replacing it >>> with enhanced gcompat? I was thinking ldso could load libgcompat >>> instead of returning a reference to itself for DT_NEEDED referencing >>> libc.so.6, and we could move all ABI-compat symbols into gcompat. >>> >>> The reason I bring it up is that ripping out the LFS64 >>> unwantedly-linkable stuff while keeping it as ABI-only is looking lik= e >>> more of a pain than I expected. >> >> We would be more than happy to work with you on that. >> >> Would gcompat then become a runtime requirement for glibc apps on musl= ? >> What would musl do if gcompat isn't installed on a system? >=20 > It would just be a failed DT_NEEDED. Okay, sounds reasonable. >> What about >> things like libm and libdl, which I've seen some apps force DT_NEEDED >> anyway when built against musl? >=20 > These could still be ignored (mapped to internal libc) since any > program using them would also necessarily be using libc.so.6. Likewise. >> Just trying to make sure the community has a clear view of what this >> looks like before we jump in. >=20 > Yes. This isn't a request to jump in, just looking at feasability and > whether there'd be interest from your side. Being that ABI-compat > doesn't actually work very well without gcompat right now, though, I > think it might make sense. I'll continue to look at whether there are > other options, possibly just transitional, that might be good too. I meant: I want a clear view of the boundaries between musl and gcompat, before we (Ad=C3=A9lie / the gcompat team) jump in and start designing ho= w we want to handle all the new symbols we may end up with :) We also were considering setting up a dedicated gcompat site so that the community could share apps that are known to work / fail, symbol presence, LSB missing symbols, etc. Would that be of interest from your side as well? Best, --arw --=20 A. Wilcox (awilfox) Project Lead, Ad=C3=A9lie Linux https://www.adelielinux.org --BXY0jJqXdyMYiSIDtdrUYY6TV8c8p3yEm-- --HMng8kj2DSfZHwHTG2B5dkkCy7HueuSkP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEjNyWOYPU1SaTSMHHyynLUZIrnRQFAl0vZIsACgkQyynLUZIr nRSDYw//ZiU8yjDAy2L2mzNNCBrMy2bmvJ8B1qn063S29R4iEQdrrSXJo1r35Wrc gE8aTPRLntxmyqnWIEBCl9NwKM713lz7X6y6FeRPtfKWDzaBjO4ecuuC3Fr0w/K0 d0LB+FbRGrGWATJx4/cIF7gVqjFiyTU4VwV/RvuYQkexf0kuPEkNDavIAzW+xIeO ftvPC5hX9jJXuJWnWzQ3yIYqfjAE9Ym+i5+WN21MgBiYQDjTwkDv/EX5iDBcjKMI l+CMah/1IUklx+RCgfZ2Bxm+Sq0Z1SLK/+Y1xftXJ/I1r5o6h/ADBTD7IG5GfePh /2VBq7CnwDloHQQ5NfBL67E2DkRxOPR8tSed7fwD1MdKIA0+Pu1/m1xnD8MwsUPk NxI8d38Lh6NJ3/iBc2KCCTiIXzT1fx8CShuvtl+3HNljsW6ZDws3ehtlicLVlvWc kc07zbPfsxLMUHaNuFiccqkXysPh1PKKocWVfeYFC50v35E1z/HoCsl8ENMPtUpl P2Gd+ozJKVmW+AfyQ3E+OrZ7KpwAwSxoIVDbLKgaKU0MokeGvHjoYXqu9ZDlXFaO zBlAR1g3tHjaYvRRcp9lNKKmLY+ODA1w7SAw2yTzqDcTdiXucmS2MN1RagnG0XWC OZlLGUX9OmaG7SVG/PLwNuQsBbJcjbQjv4fBRitqa3xVn7PCKw8= =wVO6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HMng8kj2DSfZHwHTG2B5dkkCy7HueuSkP--