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* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
       [not found] <005401c36cc5$49e494a0$0e604442@wang>
@ 2003-08-28  2:52 ` Hong Feng
  2003-08-28 17:32   ` Tim 't Hart
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Hong Feng @ 2003-08-28  2:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: Hans Hagen, Hong Feng, Kakuto, Akira, Okumura, Haruhiko

> > It's time to discuss the topic "CJK support in ConTeXt" in a more public
> > place.
> 
> Agree! 

The currently ConTeXt release support UTF-8, CJKV locales can all be 
represented in UTF-8, so the mechanism is already done.

IMHO, the real one work to do is to make the sets of typesetting 
conventions (typesetting rules) for each locale of CJKV (like 
the Chinese package did), that would varies quite much from 
locale to locale, all all of them are based on the same 
underlayed mechanism.

Best,
Hong


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* RE: CJK support in ConTeXt
  2003-08-28  2:52 ` CJK support in ConTeXt Hong Feng
@ 2003-08-28 17:32   ` Tim 't Hart
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Tim 't Hart @ 2003-08-28 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw)


Hong Feng wrote:

> The currently ConTeXt release support UTF-8, CJKV locales can all be
> represented in UTF-8, so the mechanism is already done.
> 
> IMHO, the real one work to do is to make the sets of typesetting
> conventions (typesetting rules) for each locale of CJKV (like
> the Chinese package did), that would varies quite much from
> locale to locale, all all of them are based on the same
> underlayed mechanism.

My very first experiment with trying to use Japanese with ConTeXt made use
of ConTeXt's built-in support for UTF-8. I soon found out that there is no
line breaking present when UTF-8 support is used. So that has to be
implemented. I'm not sure, but I remember that Hans once told me that that
the typesetting mechanism and line breaking algorithm as used in the Chinese
module cannot be directly used for UTF-8 support. Therefore I'm not sure if
we can simply say that the 'mechanism is already done'. Maybe Hans can tell
how difficult it is to add a line breaking mechanism to the UTF-8 support?

It would be really handy if we could use ConTeXt's UTF-8 support so that
some work for a CJK module is already done. But on the other hand, by using
e-Omega, a lot of work is also already done. We have to make sure that
adapting the UTF-8 mechanism doesn't take more time and effort than creating
a module based on e-Omega. A CJK module based on e-Omega is maybe easier to
write and more flexible. For example, not everyone can write documents in
UTF-8. e-Omega will allow almost any kind of file encoding as long as there
is an OTP available to convert it to Unicode. 

So I think the questions we have to ask ourselves are: Do we make line
breaking and typesetting algorithms for ConTeXt's UTF-8 support or for
e-Omega? What is the time and effort needed in creating a CJK module for
each solution? And what solution gives the most powerful typesetting
options?

Personally, I would go for the e-Omega option, but I wouldn't mind seeing a
module based on ConTeXt's UTF-8 support. As long as there is support for
CJK, I'll be happy! :)

My best,
Tim

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
  2003-08-27 16:08       ` Idris S Hamid
@ 2003-08-28 11:26         ` Alan Hoenig
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Alan Hoenig @ 2003-08-28 11:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: ntg-context, Fabrice Popineau, Christian Schenk

`Aleph' gets my vote.  I think it's a great idea.

---Alan

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
       [not found] ` <".134.221.25.121.1061968535.squirrel"@www.t-hart.com>
  2003-08-27 11:29   ` Re[3]: " Hans Hagen
@ 2003-08-28  8:47   ` Hans Hagen
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2003-08-28  8:47 UTC (permalink / raw)


At 09:15 27/08/2003 +0200, you wrote:

>quite useable. If anyone else is interested in what I've produced so
>far, please let me know.

can you put together a zip with (1) fonts, (2) macros (3) examples - also 
in pdf, so that i can have a look at it?

Hans
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
  2003-08-27 11:38     ` Re[4]: " Giuseppe Bilotta
@ 2003-08-27 16:08       ` Idris S Hamid
  2003-08-28 11:26         ` Alan Hoenig
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Idris S Hamid @ 2003-08-27 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: Fabrice Popineau, Christian Schenk, ahoenig

Giuseppe Bilotta wrote:

> Wednesday, August 27, 2003 Hans Hagen wrote:
>
> HH> At 12:37 27/08/2003 +0200, you wrote:
> >>(I hate replying to myself, but ...)
> >>
> >>Ok, since it seems that e-Omega is starting to get some "mass"
> >>interest, I'm thinking about setting up a mailing list for it.
> >>Maybe two, one for users and one for developers. Any
> >>suggestions on the listserver to use?
>
> HH> i can ask the ntg, since they host more lists, ok? you can mnage the list
> HH> with mailmanager
>
> AFAIK, the two "biggest" TeX mailing lists holders are ntg and
> tug; either is fine for me. Should I create two lists, or do
> you think that one list is enough?

FWIW, I think that one list is certainly enough. Looking at the Omega list I'm
not sure there was any real benefit in having two lists; we certainly don't need
to divide energies at this stage with two low-traffic lists.

Now when eOmega becomes a hit, we can adjust accordingly.


> Given the ideas on the name change (which will be factual with
> the first officially "stable" release, that is the one
> following RC2, probably) it's probably better to use aleph in
> the mailing list name. So:

BTW, since u and Hans seem to like my idea (and I'm cc'ing the others to see if
they object), is it official? Are we going with Aleph?

Best wishes
Idris

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
  2003-08-27  2:39 Jin-Hwan Cho
  2003-08-27  6:29 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2003-08-27  9:04 ` Hong Feng
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Hong Feng @ 2003-08-27  9:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: Hans Hagen, Lei Wang, Kakuto, Akira, Okumura, Haruhiko

> It's time to discuss the topic "CJK support in ConTeXt" in a more public
> place.

I can support this idea!  I can build a mailing list with
GNU Mailman on my upcoming server.

Rgds,
Hong

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? 
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
@ 2003-08-27  7:15 Tim 't Hart
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Tim 't Hart @ 2003-08-27  7:15 UTC (permalink / raw)


Jin-Hwan Cho wrote:

>It's time to discuss the topic "CJK support in ConTeXt" in a more
>public place.

I couldn't agree more! :-)

>The current version of ConTeXt supports Chinese only. But the same
>mechasism enables Korean too. The remaining language is Japanese.
>In some sense, it is possible to support Japanese in the current
>subfont mechanism. But several issues (e.g. Japanese kerning system
>as explained by Okumura) may occur.

Could you explain what these issues are? For the past couple of
months I've been busy writing Japanese support for ConTeXt, based
on the Chinese module. I'm not an expert in this, so I'm sure the
method I used for writing Japanese support is wrong and can be
improved. But for my own personal use it has already proven to be
quite useable. If anyone else is interested in what I've produced so
far, please let me know.

I would like to know what the issues with Japanese kerning are. I do
not know a lot about Japanese typography and would like to know what
the limitations of code based on the Chinese module are.

>My suggestion for supporting CJK characters in ConTeXt is to write a
>new module using e-Omega. Even though e-Omega does not produce PDF
>format directly, there are not much problem with DVIPDFMx.

When I first tried to use Japanese with ConTeXt, I first looked at
e-Omega. The reason I gave up and tried to adapt the Chinese module
was that e-Omega was unstable on my machine. Version 1.23 crashed
immediately (got stuck in a loop producing [] characters). I tried
1.15 because I heard that was more stable. I got some Japanese
output with this version, but when I tried creating more than a
paragraph, it locked as well. But this was all a few months ago.
Does anybody know if things with e-Omega have improved recently?

Anyway, I would like to see a common CJK module for ConTeXt, where
Chinese, Korean and Japanese are based on the same base code. It
doesn't matter to me if it's implemented using subfonts or on using
e-Omega, as long as it's stable and useable. Therefore, I would
like to offer my help in creating CJK support.

My best,
Tim

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
  2003-08-27  2:39 Jin-Hwan Cho
@ 2003-08-27  6:29 ` Hans Hagen
  2003-08-27  9:04 ` Hong Feng
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2003-08-27  6:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: ntg-context, Hans Hagen, Hong Feng, Lei Wang, Kakuto, Akira,
	Okumura, Haruhiko

Hi Chof,

So, alternative way is to use ASCII pTeX for Japanese. Basically looks no
>problem
>but I worry eTeX extension features. Is it possible to run ConTeXt without
>eTeX
>extension features, Hans?

in principle yes, but you loose xml handling and a few other things.

>My suggestion for supporting CJK characters in ConTeXt is to write a new
>module
>using e-Omega. Even though e-Omega does not produce PDF format directly,
>there are not much problem with DVIPDFMx.

sounds ok to me

Hans



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl
                       Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
  tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf
                     documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* CJK support in ConTeXt
@ 2003-08-27  2:39 Jin-Hwan Cho
  2003-08-27  6:29 ` Hans Hagen
  2003-08-27  9:04 ` Hong Feng
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Jin-Hwan Cho @ 2003-08-27  2:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: Hans Hagen, Hong Feng, Lei Wang, Kakuto, Akira, Okumura, Haruhiko

It's time to discuss the topic "CJK support in ConTeXt" in a more public
place.

The current version of ConTeXt supports Chinese only. But the same mechasism
enables Korean too. The remaining language is Japanese. In some sense, it is
possible to support Japanese in the current subfont mechanism. But several
issues (e.g. Japanese kerning system as explained by Okumura) may occur.

So, alternative way is to use ASCII pTeX for Japanese. Basically looks no
problem
but I worry eTeX extension features. Is it possible to run ConTeXt without
eTeX
extension features, Hans?

My suggestion for supporting CJK characters in ConTeXt is to write a new
module
using e-Omega. Even though e-Omega does not produce PDF format directly,
there are not much problem with DVIPDFMx.

Best, ChoF.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~     ***
| Cho, Jin-Hwan == ChoF |     ^ ^
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~      o
| Research Fellow       |     ~~~
| School of Mathematics ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Korea Institute for Advanced Study |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| chofchof@ktug.or.kr                |
| http://free.kaist.ac.kr/ChoF/      |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2003-08-28 17:32 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
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     [not found] <005401c36cc5$49e494a0$0e604442@wang>
2003-08-28  2:52 ` CJK support in ConTeXt Hong Feng
2003-08-28 17:32   ` Tim 't Hart
2003-08-27 10:07 Re[2]: " Giuseppe Bilotta
     [not found] ` <".134.221.25.121.1061968535.squirrel"@www.t-hart.com>
2003-08-27 11:29   ` Re[3]: " Hans Hagen
2003-08-27 11:38     ` Re[4]: " Giuseppe Bilotta
2003-08-27 16:08       ` Idris S Hamid
2003-08-28 11:26         ` Alan Hoenig
2003-08-28  8:47   ` Hans Hagen
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-08-27  7:15 Tim 't Hart
2003-08-27  2:39 Jin-Hwan Cho
2003-08-27  6:29 ` Hans Hagen
2003-08-27  9:04 ` Hong Feng

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