* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
[not found] <005401c36cc5$49e494a0$0e604442@wang>
@ 2003-08-28 2:52 ` Hong Feng
2003-08-28 17:32 ` Tim 't Hart
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Hong Feng @ 2003-08-28 2:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Hans Hagen, Hong Feng, Kakuto, Akira, Okumura, Haruhiko
> > It's time to discuss the topic "CJK support in ConTeXt" in a more public
> > place.
>
> Agree!
The currently ConTeXt release support UTF-8, CJKV locales can all be
represented in UTF-8, so the mechanism is already done.
IMHO, the real one work to do is to make the sets of typesetting
conventions (typesetting rules) for each locale of CJKV (like
the Chinese package did), that would varies quite much from
locale to locale, all all of them are based on the same
underlayed mechanism.
Best,
Hong
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* RE: CJK support in ConTeXt
2003-08-28 2:52 ` CJK support in ConTeXt Hong Feng
@ 2003-08-28 17:32 ` Tim 't Hart
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Tim 't Hart @ 2003-08-28 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
Hong Feng wrote:
> The currently ConTeXt release support UTF-8, CJKV locales can all be
> represented in UTF-8, so the mechanism is already done.
>
> IMHO, the real one work to do is to make the sets of typesetting
> conventions (typesetting rules) for each locale of CJKV (like
> the Chinese package did), that would varies quite much from
> locale to locale, all all of them are based on the same
> underlayed mechanism.
My very first experiment with trying to use Japanese with ConTeXt made use
of ConTeXt's built-in support for UTF-8. I soon found out that there is no
line breaking present when UTF-8 support is used. So that has to be
implemented. I'm not sure, but I remember that Hans once told me that that
the typesetting mechanism and line breaking algorithm as used in the Chinese
module cannot be directly used for UTF-8 support. Therefore I'm not sure if
we can simply say that the 'mechanism is already done'. Maybe Hans can tell
how difficult it is to add a line breaking mechanism to the UTF-8 support?
It would be really handy if we could use ConTeXt's UTF-8 support so that
some work for a CJK module is already done. But on the other hand, by using
e-Omega, a lot of work is also already done. We have to make sure that
adapting the UTF-8 mechanism doesn't take more time and effort than creating
a module based on e-Omega. A CJK module based on e-Omega is maybe easier to
write and more flexible. For example, not everyone can write documents in
UTF-8. e-Omega will allow almost any kind of file encoding as long as there
is an OTP available to convert it to Unicode.
So I think the questions we have to ask ourselves are: Do we make line
breaking and typesetting algorithms for ConTeXt's UTF-8 support or for
e-Omega? What is the time and effort needed in creating a CJK module for
each solution? And what solution gives the most powerful typesetting
options?
Personally, I would go for the e-Omega option, but I wouldn't mind seeing a
module based on ConTeXt's UTF-8 support. As long as there is support for
CJK, I'll be happy! :)
My best,
Tim
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re[2]: CJK support in ConTeXt
@ 2003-08-27 10:07 Giuseppe Bilotta
[not found] ` <".134.221.25.121.1061968535.squirrel"@www.t-hart.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Giuseppe Bilotta @ 2003-08-27 10:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
Wednesday, August 27, 2003 Tim 't Hart wrote:
TtH> Jin-Hwan Cho wrote:
>>My suggestion for supporting CJK characters in ConTeXt is to write a
>>new module using e-Omega. Even though e-Omega does not produce PDF
>>format directly, there are not much problem with DVIPDFMx.
TtH> When I first tried to use Japanese with ConTeXt, I first looked at
TtH> e-Omega. The reason I gave up and tried to adapt the Chinese module
TtH> was that e-Omega was unstable on my machine. Version 1.23 crashed
TtH> immediately (got stuck in a loop producing [] characters). I tried
TtH> 1.15 because I heard that was more stable. I got some Japanese
TtH> output with this version, but when I tried creating more than a
TtH> paragraph, it locked as well. But this was all a few months ago.
TtH> Does anybody know if things with e-Omega have improved recently?
I happen to be in the e-Omega task force, so I'm extremely
interested in any bug report you may have on it. For the
moment, let's stick to the 1.15 version, which is the official
version.
First of all, which TeX distribution are you using, and what
does the e-Omega banner say? I know there are people using
e-Omega for production use, so you might want to see if there
is an upgrade available for your distribution.
Secondly, do you have a test file I could give a look at? If it
needs any nonstandard extra files/fonts/metrics/packages,
please give me pointers to these as well.
--
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
@ 2003-08-27 7:15 Tim 't Hart
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Tim 't Hart @ 2003-08-27 7:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
Jin-Hwan Cho wrote:
>It's time to discuss the topic "CJK support in ConTeXt" in a more
>public place.
I couldn't agree more! :-)
>The current version of ConTeXt supports Chinese only. But the same
>mechasism enables Korean too. The remaining language is Japanese.
>In some sense, it is possible to support Japanese in the current
>subfont mechanism. But several issues (e.g. Japanese kerning system
>as explained by Okumura) may occur.
Could you explain what these issues are? For the past couple of
months I've been busy writing Japanese support for ConTeXt, based
on the Chinese module. I'm not an expert in this, so I'm sure the
method I used for writing Japanese support is wrong and can be
improved. But for my own personal use it has already proven to be
quite useable. If anyone else is interested in what I've produced so
far, please let me know.
I would like to know what the issues with Japanese kerning are. I do
not know a lot about Japanese typography and would like to know what
the limitations of code based on the Chinese module are.
>My suggestion for supporting CJK characters in ConTeXt is to write a
>new module using e-Omega. Even though e-Omega does not produce PDF
>format directly, there are not much problem with DVIPDFMx.
When I first tried to use Japanese with ConTeXt, I first looked at
e-Omega. The reason I gave up and tried to adapt the Chinese module
was that e-Omega was unstable on my machine. Version 1.23 crashed
immediately (got stuck in a loop producing [] characters). I tried
1.15 because I heard that was more stable. I got some Japanese
output with this version, but when I tried creating more than a
paragraph, it locked as well. But this was all a few months ago.
Does anybody know if things with e-Omega have improved recently?
Anyway, I would like to see a common CJK module for ConTeXt, where
Chinese, Korean and Japanese are based on the same base code. It
doesn't matter to me if it's implemented using subfonts or on using
e-Omega, as long as it's stable and useable. Therefore, I would
like to offer my help in creating CJK support.
My best,
Tim
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* CJK support in ConTeXt
@ 2003-08-27 2:39 Jin-Hwan Cho
2003-08-27 6:29 ` Hans Hagen
2003-08-27 9:04 ` Hong Feng
0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Jin-Hwan Cho @ 2003-08-27 2:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Hans Hagen, Hong Feng, Lei Wang, Kakuto, Akira, Okumura, Haruhiko
It's time to discuss the topic "CJK support in ConTeXt" in a more public
place.
The current version of ConTeXt supports Chinese only. But the same mechasism
enables Korean too. The remaining language is Japanese. In some sense, it is
possible to support Japanese in the current subfont mechanism. But several
issues (e.g. Japanese kerning system as explained by Okumura) may occur.
So, alternative way is to use ASCII pTeX for Japanese. Basically looks no
problem
but I worry eTeX extension features. Is it possible to run ConTeXt without
eTeX
extension features, Hans?
My suggestion for supporting CJK characters in ConTeXt is to write a new
module
using e-Omega. Even though e-Omega does not produce PDF format directly,
there are not much problem with DVIPDFMx.
Best, ChoF.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ***
| Cho, Jin-Hwan == ChoF | ^ ^
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ o
| Research Fellow | ~~~
| School of Mathematics ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Korea Institute for Advanced Study |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| chofchof@ktug.or.kr |
| http://free.kaist.ac.kr/ChoF/ |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
2003-08-27 2:39 Jin-Hwan Cho
@ 2003-08-27 6:29 ` Hans Hagen
2003-08-27 9:04 ` Hong Feng
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Hans Hagen @ 2003-08-27 6:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: ntg-context, Hans Hagen, Hong Feng, Lei Wang, Kakuto, Akira,
Okumura, Haruhiko
Hi Chof,
So, alternative way is to use ASCII pTeX for Japanese. Basically looks no
>problem
>but I worry eTeX extension features. Is it possible to run ConTeXt without
>eTeX
>extension features, Hans?
in principle yes, but you loose xml handling and a few other things.
>My suggestion for supporting CJK characters in ConTeXt is to write a new
>module
>using e-Omega. Even though e-Omega does not produce PDF format directly,
>there are not much problem with DVIPDFMx.
sounds ok to me
Hans
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: CJK support in ConTeXt
2003-08-27 2:39 Jin-Hwan Cho
2003-08-27 6:29 ` Hans Hagen
@ 2003-08-27 9:04 ` Hong Feng
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Hong Feng @ 2003-08-27 9:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: Hans Hagen, Lei Wang, Kakuto, Akira, Okumura, Haruhiko
> It's time to discuss the topic "CJK support in ConTeXt" in a more public
> place.
I can support this idea! I can build a mailing list with
GNU Mailman on my upcoming server.
Rgds,
Hong
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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2003-08-28 2:52 ` CJK support in ConTeXt Hong Feng
2003-08-28 17:32 ` Tim 't Hart
2003-08-27 10:07 Re[2]: " Giuseppe Bilotta
[not found] ` <".134.221.25.121.1061968535.squirrel"@www.t-hart.com>
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