* Re: VTeX and ConTeXt [not found] <2.2.32.20020723201055.00e77d74@pop.panix.com> @ 2002-07-24 6:37 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-24 11:55 ` Christopher Cardinale 0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-24 6:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context At 04:10 PM 7/23/2002 -0400, you wrote: >It should not be impossible (ot particularly hard) to write drivers for it; >but with ConTeXt being a system in active development it would be impossible >(for us) to maintain such drivers for any length of time; the only way here >if such >drivers were to be done and maintained by Hans/Pragma (in part, because Hans >is much more familiar with how ConTeXt drivers should be written). actually, only one driver is needed, adn i would write it anyway since it's not that hard to do (spec-vtx or so); the problem is that i once tried to install vtex but quit when it messed up my system fonts; if vtex could operate in the texmf tree i could install it in a small separate tree (actually i only need the binary and a connection to the texmf tree). >The additional reason why we currently would not support it is that while >ConTeXt >has very few users comparing with Plain or LaTeX, supporting it would in >effect >double the amount of macro support we have to do. [Example: say, such drivers >are provided. What about our users who use the Function Plot plugin? Should we hm, many context users use mp so thats no big problem >be adding a new macro package for use with ConTeXt? Same goes for any other >GeX-supporting pieces (and there are many now). What about the users >of our premium fonts? Should we be also adding ConTeXt support styles for >all of them? >And the list goes on...] dunno about the fonts; probably only a matter of a name mapping file; afaik vtex fonts work ok, that is, the informal math does. >Given relatively few ConTeXt users at this time, doing this would be of >interest >to very few people and at the same time would shortchange much larger set >of our Plain/LaTeX users (because by doing work on supporting ConTeXt we >would have to do less in other directions). sure, chicken and egg problem: if there were more people using vtex i would be more tempted to look into it -) >When/if ConTeXt becomes more stable and "mainstream", it would be something >to consider. Hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: VTeX and ConTeXt 2002-07-24 6:37 ` VTeX and ConTeXt Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-24 11:55 ` Christopher Cardinale 2002-07-24 12:05 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-24 13:14 ` Martin Kolarík 0 siblings, 2 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Christopher Cardinale @ 2002-07-24 11:55 UTC (permalink / raw) Here's a message I received from Mike Vulis a while ago: At 05:26 PM 7/11/02 -0400, you wrote: >Is there any way to use the ConTeXt macro package in VTeX? At the moment, no. There are no VTeX drivers in Context (these are "implementation-specific" parts, like those which deal with hyperreferences or picture insertions). Possibly, eventually someone would write them. >Does VTeX only >support plain-TeX and LaTeX? And AmsTeX, and LaTeX 2.09. At this time supporting Context does not seem to be worthwhile; it has a very small user base (<1% of LaTeX) and it is far from clear that it would "take off". Adding Context to the supported set would help very few users and impose too much extra burden on us (having to worry that the new features -- and, for example, the forthcoming 8.0 will have a number of them -- are supported in a reasonable way). Furthermore, Context is not a stable package -- it changes all the time and gets broken all too often; this makes it even more difficult to support. > >Thanks, >Chris Cardinale > > > --------------------------------------------- Michael Vulis MicroPress mailto://support@micropress-inc.com http://www.micropress-inc.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: VTeX and ConTeXt 2002-07-24 11:55 ` Christopher Cardinale @ 2002-07-24 12:05 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-24 13:14 ` Martin Kolarík 1 sibling, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-24 12:05 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ntg-context At 04:55 AM 7/24/2002 -0700, you wrote: >user base (<1% of LaTeX) and it is far from clear that it would "take off". hm, the number of users in still increasing -) >Context is not a stable package -- it changes all the time and gets broken >all too often; hm again; if i would post once a year (as latex) 'new features' undoubtely would be more stable, but then users could not use them during that year; unstable parts concern tricky things that are complicated to solve in tex and need much experimentation and user input; this will not change; most of the old stuff is pretty stable (the latex kernel is relatively small, and when context would be stripped down to that part, it is stable enough); if i look at for instance the pdftex list, i wonder how stability of the more advanced latex features is defined anyway, given the frequency of patches of hyper code -) anyhow, if i can find a reason for using it, i will look into a vtex driver; as said, it's probably a matter of defining a few spec things (rather isolated code) Hans ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE | pragma@wxs.nl Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: +31 (0)38 477 53 69 | fax: +31 (0)38 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- information: http://www.pragma-ade.com/roadmap.pdf documentation: http://www.pragma-ade.com/showcase.pdf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* RE: VTeX and ConTeXt 2002-07-24 11:55 ` Christopher Cardinale 2002-07-24 12:05 ` Hans Hagen @ 2002-07-24 13:14 ` Martin Kolarík 2002-07-24 15:17 ` Frans Goddijn 1 sibling, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Martin Kolarík @ 2002-07-24 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw) > Context is not a stable package -- it changes all the time and gets broken > all too often; IMHO it is misleading... ConTeXt (now) is a monolithic package where almost all code seems to be stable. Changes are done mainly in new or experimental code (as Hans wrote) and besides, what code is experimental is well documented. I am using ConTeXt for over a two and half year (yes, real using is counted for last 3/4 year) and I never had problems with compatibilty. So, "gets broken all to often" is too strong for me. > this makes it even more difficult to support. I have a colleague, who needed to modify some core parts of LaTeX to allow make some of (compatible) extensions possible. Yes, core is core and nobody wants to modify it, but he surrendered his effort after year of unsucessfull negotiations with LaTeX team. The feature was not added, extensions are unable to be done, and czech users of LaTeX have to do some things very uncomfortably... And the support of these users? Support of ConTeXt is immediate, correct and more than sufficient. I very well know what a commerce product is, so I really respect almost all arguments of MicroPress. But some of them started to sound too subjective for me... I apologize for this a bit off-topic mail, have a nice day (all :-), Martin -------- Martin Kolarik Moravske Pristroje, a.s., Masarykova 1148, Zlin 76302 tel. +420(603)498498, fax +420(603)490803 web: http://www.mii.cz -------- e-mail: kolarik@mii.cz e-mail: kolarik@click.cz tel. +420(603)535593 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: VTeX and ConTeXt 2002-07-24 13:14 ` Martin Kolarík @ 2002-07-24 15:17 ` Frans Goddijn 2002-07-24 16:19 ` Idris S Hamid 0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Frans Goddijn @ 2002-07-24 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw) I agree with Martin Kolarik. If VTeX would include support for ConTeXt and the users would restrict themselves to the commands and options of the beginner's set, it will be a very stable package. When users want to learn more, and need to push their work to (and on) the cutting edge of the latest options, then they must accept the fact that because of the prompt modifications and solutions to any upcoming problems, the entire package needs to be more frequently updated. You can't order a full menu and at the same time demand that your dinner table remains cleared. If you want the simple basic advantages of ConTeXt, no problem, and if you want to surf way out there with the pros, expect to ride a wave. It's thrilling and it goes at great speeds, it enables you to do more tricks than anyone else, and you run the risk of occasionally toppling over with code and choke on a macro, but your personal lifeguard Hans is always around to throw you a patch. Best regards, Frans ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* Re: VTeX and ConTeXt 2002-07-24 15:17 ` Frans Goddijn @ 2002-07-24 16:19 ` Idris S Hamid 0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Idris S Hamid @ 2002-07-24 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wednesday 24 July 2002 09:17, Frans Goddijn wrote: > I agree with Martin Kolarik. If VTeX would include support for ConTeXt and > the users would restrict themselves to the commands and options of the > beginner's set, it will be a very stable package. > > When users want to learn more, and need to push their work to (and on) the > cutting edge of the latest options, then they must accept the fact that > because of the prompt modifications and solutions to any upcoming problems, > the entire package needs to be more frequently updated. You can't order a > full menu and at the same time demand that your dinner table remains > cleared. This is way too complicated, and will turn into a headache for Hans and others. Creating two tiers of ConTeXt user with respect to VTeX is a Very Bad Idea IMO. The best thing to do is let VTeX users compile ConTeXt on VTeX and see if it's usable or not. Then pressure the VTeX developers to add the functionality needed for ConTeXt to compile. Hans and the ConTeXt team should definitely NOT get too involved in this distraction (beyond licensing and protecting the interests of Pragma). If the VTeX people want to support ConTeXt, let them do it on their own time and budget. DISCLAIMER: I purchased/used VTeX a few years back; it produced incorrect dvi files for some LaTeX packages and the developers refused to acknowledge or fix the problem. With all due respect to Vulis and his many contributions to the TeX community, I wasted my money. I don't know how much things have changed but I would be very wary of getting entangled with VTeX. Best wishes Idris -- Dr. Idris S Hamid Department of Philosophy Colorado State University Fort Collins, CO 80526 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-07-24 16:19 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 6+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <2.2.32.20020723201055.00e77d74@pop.panix.com> 2002-07-24 6:37 ` VTeX and ConTeXt Hans Hagen 2002-07-24 11:55 ` Christopher Cardinale 2002-07-24 12:05 ` Hans Hagen 2002-07-24 13:14 ` Martin Kolarík 2002-07-24 15:17 ` Frans Goddijn 2002-07-24 16:19 ` Idris S Hamid
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