From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.comp.tex.context/66917 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "C." Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.context Subject: Re: Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:08:09 +0100 Message-ID: <004301cbe0f1$359f65d0$a0de3170$@gmx.de> References: <874o7bvy5r.fsf@boreebo.bornier.net> <25576DBA-7D75-4B8F-8934-35CC9DBECA05@uni-bonn.de> <87ei6cvlfr.fsf@boreebo.bornier.net> <430B533D-33EE-4697-94E0-04DB7744060A@awi.de> <1B7D7EDC-2721-4DBF-9682-34E57A19FF26@awi.de> Reply-To: mailing list for ConTeXt users NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1299960519 5332 80.91.229.12 (12 Mar 2011 20:08:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:08:39 +0000 (UTC) To: "'mailing list for ConTeXt users'" Original-X-From: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Sat Mar 12 21:08:35 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([195.12.62.10]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PyV71-0006Je-Ia for gctc-ntg-context-518@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:08:31 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A21CAAF1; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:08:30 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id U0oWfwZ3V97J; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:08:25 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFA3CAAEB; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:08:24 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035E5CAAEB for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:08:24 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at balder.ntg.nl Original-Received: from balder.ntg.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (balder.ntg.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id FYBW3PFHAfGp for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:08:20 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from filter1-til.mf.surf.net (filter1-til.mf.surf.net [194.171.167.217]) by balder.ntg.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF0FCAAE0 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:08:20 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net [213.165.64.22]) by filter1-til.mf.surf.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with SMTP id p2CK8JOD031425 for ; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 21:08:19 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 12 Mar 2011 20:08:18 -0000 Original-Received: from f053208023.adsl.alicedsl.de (EHLO christianPC) [78.53.208.23] by mail.gmx.net (mp068) with SMTP; 12 Mar 2011 21:08:18 +0100 X-Authenticated: #61879178 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX180I3R5udc0P6E/WVvUw5qE+Ks5i3L2XoZD41qj3Z TL0m3y/UnE8RpK In-Reply-To: <1B7D7EDC-2721-4DBF-9682-34E57A19FF26@awi.de> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGPFKSmebb3oadFX4HarLkW5lginwED5oroATW1k8oA4XqPugH8D7WEAcy2TMoC+K9StZRUy70A Content-Language: de X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Bayes-Prob: 0.0001 (Score 0, tokens from: @@RPTN) X-CanIt-Geo: ip=213.165.64.22; country=DE; latitude=51.0000; longitude=9.0000; http://maps.google.com/maps?q=51.0000,9.0000&z=6 X-CanItPRO-Stream: uu:ntg-context@ntg.nl (inherits from uu:default, base:default) X-Canit-Stats-ID: 08Eik8jVk - 2a1b2a1545c4 - 20110312 X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 194.171.167.217 X-BeenThere: ntg-context@ntg.nl X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list for ConTeXt users List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Errors-To: ntg-context-bounces@ntg.nl Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.tex.context:66917 Archived-At: Hello, I recently started using context. I migrated from latex to xelatex to context. Mainly because of the better font support. I now value context also for its superior abilities. I feel that I can do more stuff without the use of \usepackage for this, \usepackage for that. When I read the documentation, I get the feeling that a lot of thoughts went into the options that are presented but it's still easy to customize (if you know how to do it :D) Here is my input to your questions. 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii? The difference is not well explained. Also, mkii (which I don't use) sounds like "the old version". When I first read about context, it was like "well, we have this and that (mkii and mkiv)" but it should say "we have mkii, [insert here: what can it do, for what users is it recommended, pros/cons] and mkiv [insert info]. If you are not sure what to use, then you should use mkiv, because that is the future." Or something like that. 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals? Because they already have it in miktex, texlive. What they don't know is that these versions are outdated and due to the heavy development pretty far behind. Plus, it should say "Context Standalone" because that is what it is. 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers? I for one would welcome to see more guides like the "titles" guide. Nicely commented and explained code, result as picture. For better structure it would be an option to use code blocks that can be hidden, with a small [+] in front that you can click to see the code. 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for search engine requests? I read the manual section, if that does not answer it, I google " context". Most of the time that takes me to the mail archive. 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users? I don't know. Maybe that helps. Christian > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Florian Wobbe [mailto:Florian.Wobbe@awi.de] > Gesendet: Samstag, 12. M=E4rz 2011 13:21 > An: mailing list for ConTeXt users > Betreff: [NTG-context] Ideas for restructuring the ConTeXt garden? > = > Maybe we should start a discussion in a new thread to find out: > = > 1) why users are confused with mkiv/mkii? > 2) why they my be reluctant to install the minimals? > 3) how to restructure the garden to make things clearer for newcomers? > 4) how do users look for information and how to optimise the garden for > search engine requests? > 5) how to better promote context to new/latex users? > = > Especially answers from new users to the first three points would be helpful > to answer the fifth point I guess. > = > >> In general I find it difficult to differentiate between mkiv and mkii related > information in the wiki. How could we better structure the wiki to make it > easier for the reader? Disambiguation pages, mkiv/mkii sections, > independent pages with mkiv/mkii in headerline? > > Just my 2 cents on this: difficult, because you won't be able to make > everybody happy. Every now and then, I see a new user on the list who asks > about "installing mkiv" and doesn't realize that it is not really something > which you have to install additionally. We shouldn't scare those users > because in so many cases, mkii and mkiv are exactly identical, so that would > be an arguments against a too stric separation. > = > I understand the problem. > = > Having said that, pages like "Using Mark IV" or "Install Mark IV" should be > renamed to "installing/using context". > = > Maybe it would help to include a little box "important things to know" on the > installation page and explain shortly that for historical reasons mkii and mkiv > are distributed together and that the former is regarded deprecated. Maybe > link to a new page: Differences between miiv/mkii and how both are invoked > (context vs. texexec). > = > Then I am aware of many people who are reluctant to install the minimals. I > now wonder why I (myself) was unwilling to install the minimals in the first > place, having TeXLive installed already. For one it was because of the extra > effort. But I recall it was also the name "The ConTeXt MINIMAL distribution" > that kept me. The name "minimal" somehow suggested something > incomplete or minor to me. It took me a while to figure out that the minimals > is actually more than you get from TexLive. Therefore, I would suggest > leaving out "minimal" and advertise the superior instead. > = > > But of course you're also right that it's frustrating for users if they can't find > relevant information for the areas where the two differ. As long as mkiv > hasn't settled, this is not easy... > = > In deed. I guess this has most relevance for people new to context, > especially those who know latex already and are used to find help easily. > = > >> We should add criterium=3Dcite and criterium=3Dtext to the Wiki (Bibliography > MKIV page: http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography_mkiv). > > > > You are of course right, but I assume Hans is working on bibliographies right > now (he promised to finish something which I need for a project in March, so > that leaves him another two weeks ;-), so we should maybe wait a bit. > = > OK, fine. I'm curious what new feature this will bring to us! > = > > criterium=3Dcite should work as well, but doesn't right now. > > > >> In the beginning it was not clear to me, that > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliography refers to the MKII > implementation of Taco. Therefore, I would suggest to rename Bibliography > to Bibliography_mkii and create an alias Bibliography that redirects to > Bibliography_mkiv instead. In the wiki pages Bibliography_mkiv and > Bibliography_mkii the first sentence should state that the page is related to > mkii/mkiv only and link to the other page. Do you think this is reasonable? > > > > I had begun rewriting the page. There is now > http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Bibliographies which links to the other pages, > and which is linked to on the front page. But another context-related project > kept me away from this and I never finished this, so fell free to shuffle and > rewrite things! > = > I see. I was not aware of this page. I usually find information on the wiki by > searching for: "site:wiki.contextgarden.net placepublications". So if there are > actually disambiguation pages for mkiv/mkii it makes sense to include > mkiv/mkii on both pages (not just one). > = > >> I would like to add a section on customising bibstyle files and add space > for sharing reference styles of different journals. What do you think? > > > > Again, that's a very good idea, but we should maybe wait just a bit till the > dust settles a bit. > = > All right. > = > Best, > Florian > = ___________________________________________________________________________= ________ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to t= he Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-cont= ext webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___________________________________________________________________________= ________